Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

[Marc S.]

Hello, I have recently attended my very first NCRS event which was held in Kissimmee. I enjoyed my time there very much. I learned, heard, and met many wonderful people. I took some classes and observer judged at the event as well as had my car in the Sportsman section. Based on my experience I have decided to get my car judged. My plan is to find items that are easily attainable and do the best I can without going nuts. I seem to be confused as to if the NCRS authenticates cars or not. It appears to me that this is indeed an authentication process. The reason I say this is so much importance IS given on originality. That is the first thing that is judged. If any part of the car being judged gets at least 10% in the originality section then you loose all condition points for that part. I like to review some definitions here:

Original: "present or existing from the beginning; first or earliest."
"something serving as a model or basis for imitations or copies."

Authentic: "not false or copied; genuine, real."
"Having a claimed and verifiable origin or authorship; not counterfeit or copied"

Authenticate: "validate"

With that said, the process does appear to be a form of authentication? Generally every part in the judging sheets gets validated for originality. All defnitions above apply here.

I like to know what others think. Is this a form of authentication? I have seen at least one person say that the NCRS does no authenticate cars. Please educate what the difference is if I am missing something regarding how cars are judged here.

Let's start here and see where this goes. I really like some clarification. Thanks.

[Tom H.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

I would say NO. The process just indicates that the car meets the judging guidlines, but i don't think anything is authenticated in any way.

[Michael W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Let's define 'numbers matching' while we're at it.

[Don H.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

I seem to be confused as to if the NCRS authenticates cars or not. It appears to me that this is indeed an authentication process. The reason I say this is so much importance IS given on originality. That is the first thing that is judged. If any part of the car being judged gets at least 10% in the originality section then you loose all condition points for that part.

Generally every part in the judging sheets gets validated for originality.

I like to know what others think. Is this a form of authentication? I have seen at least one person say that the NCRS does no authenticate cars. Please educate what the difference is if I am missing something regarding how cars are judged here.

Let's start here and see where this goes. I really like some clarification. Thanks.

Marc- It really does not need to go very far, as you are missing something fundamental, which is not surprising since you just joined the club. NOTHING is judged for originality. All aspects are judged for the APPEARANCE of originality. ie. the paint. No judges care if the car is actually painted with lacquer. They only care about how close the body finish comes to the appearance of original St. Louis lacquer. Same with all other aspects of the car. Any part of the car that ACTUALLY is original to the car is strictly coincidental to the judging outcome. Makes sense?

also, you misstated the 10% originality rule. If any judging line FAILS to achieve at least 10% of the APPEARANCE of originality, then Condition is not judged.

[Michael J.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Let me offer a view here. To authenticate the car is a bit of a metaphysical question. If you assume a car is the sum of its' parts, then as we judge the parts based on TFP or NTFP, and use our excellent CDCIF criteria, as well as condition criteria, we are in effect validating the parts/finishes, etc. on that basis. No, nothing at all about original or "born-with" is implied, that would be impossible. But as Don says, the "appearance" of that is what is defined by the judging. At MCA and SAAC judging we have a class known "Thoroughbred" and "Concourse Div. 1". Those cars are judged on how many "original" (as in no reproduction parts allowed) they are. NOS and restored original allowed and condition is highly important, over 50%, it has to look as brand new as possible. NCRS is not that strict except for Bowtie, etc. types I guess, But even those can't be "authenticated" as the original as in born with parts they have, again it is "appearance" based and condition not as important as MCA/SAAC.

Now, having said all that, the NCRS judging is in effect inspecting the car at hundreds of places. That can "validate" the car, for instance, to buyers looking for a car that has all the "right", "correct", TFP (whatever word you want to use) parts on it to represent what it was as it rolled off the factory floor to the dealer for the first customer to look at. It doesn't have to mean everything on the car is original or "authentic", but "appears" that way. Thus IMO. the judging is very important wrt the value of the car in the market. That is why we have a service at Barrett-Jackson to "verify" award info and even some documents.

So semantics aside, the judging does effect the car's perception outside NCRS as well as inside. I can't argue this is "authentication" or "validation", but it is important to the owner on many different levels, even if the car is never sold.

[Reba W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

On the reverse of every Flight certificate is this statement (including CAPS):

"NCRS does NOT certify or in any other way attest to the originality of any car receiving ANY NCRS judging award. NCRS judging awards represent the opinions of volunteer judges on a given date as they understand and interpret the standards, which may or may not be correct. Any subsequent purchaser, observer or judge should evaluate such car ONLY on the basis of their own knowledge and opinion and WITHOUT RELIANCE ON ANY NCRS JUDGING AWARD."


The television commentators at Barrett-Jackson auctions too often state that the NCRS award proves authenticity. This is where some of the misunderstanding comes from.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Hello, I have recently attended my very first NCRS event which was held in Kissimmee. I enjoyed my time there very much. I learned, heard, and met many wonderful people. I took some classes and observer judged at the event as well as had my car in the Sportsman section. Based on my experience I have decided to get my car judged. My plan is to find items that are easily attainable and do the best I can without going nuts. I seem to be confused as to if the NCRS authenticates cars or not. It appears to me that this is indeed an authentication process. The reason I say this is so much importance IS given on originality. That is the first thing that is judged. If any part of the car being judged gets at least 10% in the originality section then you loose all condition points for that part. I like to review some definitions here:

Original: "present or existing from the beginning; first or earliest."
"something serving as a model or basis for imitations or copies."

Authentic: "not false or copied; genuine, real."
"Having a claimed and verifiable origin or authorship; not counterfeit or copied"

Authenticate: "validate"

With that said, the process does appear to be a form of authentication? Generally every part in the judging sheets gets validated for originality. All defnitions above apply here.

I like to know what others think. Is this a form of authentication? I have seen at least one person say that the NCRS does no authenticate cars. Please educate what the difference is if I am missing something regarding how cars are judged here.

Let's start here and see where this goes. I really like some clarification. Thanks.

My response would be to suggest that you begin by providing examples of the use of the words you have chosen to define within the published judging guidelines of the organization. Including - matching numbers, if you wish.
Taking that approach will better enable us to continue this discussion.

[Michael J.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

On the reverse of every Flight certificate is this statement (including CAPS):

"NCRS does NOT certify or in any other way attest to the originality of any car receiving ANY NCRS judging award. NCRS judging awards represent the opinions of volunteer judges on a given date as they understand and interpret the standards, which may or may not be correct. Any subsequent purchaser, observer or judge should evaluate such car ONLY on the basis of their own knowledge and opinion and WITHOUT RELIANCE ON ANY NCRS JUDGING AWARD."


The television commentators at Barrett-Jackson auctions too often state that the NCRS award proves authenticity. This is where some of the misunderstanding comes from.

I agree fully, that legal disclaimer HAS to be there wrt "originality" representations of a car with an NCRS award. It is highly important legal boilerplate since NCRS is not guaranteeing or warrantying anything about the car's originality. That is a strict legal definition that protects our Society, as it should be. But to think and imply the NCRS awards mean nothing toward the way the car is viewed by a purchaser in the market is incorrect, IMO, speaking as a buyer of several.

[Joe R.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

All you NCRS people including me can dance all they want to but the judging process is as similar to an authentication process as you are going to find!!!!

When you judge on the basis of originality, condition and cleanliness what would you call the judging process. A crap shoot?

That is why the NCRS is at Barrett_Jackson!!! To supply bidders with the proof that the auto has been judged by the NCRS to be Top Flight, Second or Third!

The owners of these Corvettes expect the price to increase if the Corvette passes the NCRS judging process!!!!

And it does!!!!!!

JR

[Pat M.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

If I understand your question and NCRS's stated position I believe the answer is "no." However, several things operate to make many believe otherwise, rightly or wrongly.

First, it's my understanding NCRS does authenticate trim tags and VIN tags. While these do not constitute the whole car, they're pretty darn important to some, including myself.

Friends and I have also heard comments from judges in Flight judging that one or more parts of a car are "real", "genuine" or something similar, not merely that the parts are TFP. This, to some, at least suggests some form of authentication, rightly or wrongly.

Also as I understand Bowtie judging a car is judged for the appearance of originality, not just the appearance of TFP. And to many, judges concluding that a sufficient amount of a car appears to be original enough to garner a Bowtie is no different than the car actually being declared to be authentic.

For better or for worse, the reality is some people will rely on the above for authentication of part or all of a car regardless of NCRS's stated position. That's not NCRS's fault, it's just the way it is.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Okay my turn..

I like to first make a disclaimer in my response in this thread before I respond. Please know especially if you met me in Kissimmee I am one of those class clown sorts. I want to make it clear that I am serious in this thread. I am not trolling for a response, or trying to make any jokes to be funny. Nor am I criticizing the judging process in any way shape or form. Simply put, I don't get it, yet. I will bet that there are others like me that are not 100 percent clear on how deductions are made. But, I am not one that just accepts anything for gospel just because I don't understand it. I want to know how the wheels turn here. If any of my questions are strange, or laughable to you I am okay with it. But, it is not done with that intention. It is how I see things....With that said on with my response....

Thank you for the replies so far. I liked Roy Sinor's suggestion so I am going to take his direction. I will reply to specific posts later. But let's keep it simple.

Let's start here. I spoke to my team leader and was told that the team leaders evaluate the trim tags and Vin pillars are in order. That alone is an authentication process in my view. A car may end up being not judged based on the team leader's findings.

I am told in this thread that originality is based on appearance. On page 25 of CJRM 8th edition. It clearly states originality scoring is based on part, component part, or area appearing to the judges to comply with our Judging Standard by using their knowledge, experience, etc etc etc...

Appearance is being evaluated with your Judging Standard. I get that. But lets go to page 34. #12 Body Fiberglass and Component. It clearly states the body appears to be assembled by the factory from ORIGINALLY manufactured components. I repeat (ASSEMBLED BY THE FACTORY and ORIGINALLY manufactured components.) Clear as crystal this must be ORIGINAL to the car.

Furthermore, let look at TIRES section Page 30. A deduction of 10% which differ original only because of federally required DOT markings.

Why if this is supposed to be on appearance and not on true originality why look for the markings? What was described earlier on how items are evaluated is more like a Duck Test. If it looks, swims, and quacks like a duck then it is a duck. At the Thursday evening judging school in Kissimmee there was discussion on how some folks have tried to remove the markings and how the judges know ways to see if they were removed. This sure sounds like an authentication call to me here.

The same can apply for the carburetor. Why are we considering date then? If it appears as factory then that would seem to be all that was needed for full originality points. But, no, one must validate the date within 6 months. Again looks to me an authentication process and go under the definitions that I wrote in my opening post.

I am gonna stop here for now and see if I can be cleared up on this before I get deeper. I can go a lot further but for me to understand the readers need to know where I am at on this and what I am thinking and why?

Thanks for reading/responding.

[Michael W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

To supply bidders with the proof that the auto has been judged by the NCRS to be Top Flight, Second or Third!

So which flight level is it that certifies a given car has it's original, authentic born-with engine, paint, body work, chrome, accessories, etc etc.

[Michael W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

I am gonna stop here for now and see if I can be cleared up on this before I get deeper.

You're confusing 'factory correct' as in TFP with 'original born with'.

[Michael G.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

On the reverse of every Flight certificate is this statement (including CAPS):

" NCRS judging awards represent the opinions of volunteer judges on a given date as they understand and interpret the standards...

The easiest way answer all of these questions is to consider the above. Even if NCRS awards were considered an "authentication" (they aren't), there is no way that "authentication" could be guaranteed to have ANY value after the car leaves the judging field. Virtually every part on the car is easily removable and many rare ones quickly disappear after judging. Its not unusual to see a high point car lose many of its rare parts before its next sale even though its touted during the sale as "Top Flight". NCRS can't control that.

[Michael H.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

The easiest way answer all of these questions is to consider the above. Even if NCRS awards were considered an "authentication" (they aren't), there is no way that "authentication" could be guaranteed to have ANY value after the car leaves the judging field. Virtually every part on the car is easily removable and many rare ones quickly disappear after judging. Its not unusual to see a high point car lose many of its rare parts before its next sale even though its touted during the sale as "Top Flight". NCRS can't control that.

I agree with the above.

Also, the certificate states that the car is within a certain range of agreement with the NCRS judging guide but that does not guarantee that the Judging Guide is 100% accurate.