Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Marc you should purchase a Judging Reference Manual from the NCRS online store. Answers to moot your questions are spelled out there

I have one along with dozens of other books. I just don't carry them in my wallet. I will take a look in that source again to look for some answers. Thumbs up!

[Michael J.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Well I finally got this one now....no flight level certifies a given car has it's original, authentic born-with engine, paint, etc etc etc.... I now understand that this is about typical factory production. So let say you have a 1971 454 car. The motor was stolen and was replaced with a different motor from a LS5 1971 car. The stamp was grinded out by the restorer and used his kit he got from Bubba's Broach Kits and stamped the vin onto the replaced motor.

Question.....IF during judging the stamp is OBVIOUS that it is a restamp and not from the factory. What happens next? Does judging stop or is there just a stamp pad deduction and classified as non typical factory production? Are is there a more severe penalty? Is the owner asked any questions? Someone mentioned a dunce cap being handed out to some folks. Is this one of those times? I am stopping here for now. Baby steps so i can understand.

For a '67, I know this well. Mine was a restoration engine, all correct except the engine pad, judged NTFP. I lost 88 points, and I have no idea what the judges thought, whispered to friends, etc. about the car, but I was not made to stand in a corner. However, I did have people (who are judges) tell me I should ditch the block and just get a blank one, I could recover part of the deduction. Sorry, way too expensive for a few points, IMO, and the block is a perfectly good one, proper date, casting, etc. I think Roy covered this issue well in some other threads.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Roy,
The stamp pad surface is 38 points, not 27 (which is why I put a question mark next to "27" in post #25). I knew that it is a small deduction, but had forgotten exactly what the value is.

Sure, some cars get spotted as counterfeit because some detail may not have been covered/modified by a hapless restorer, but you can be sure that there are plenty of cars that were done carefully and professionally, which successfully passed muster with a 38 point deduction for pad surface. And then there are the elite who have access to better equipment where the broach marks can be reproduced and are virtually undetectable, in which case the car goes through with no engine pad deductions.

Joe, I'm sorry I forgot you're the half empty glass guy who knows everything, can't prove anything. Lets agree to disagree. bye bye - I'm done.

[Michael W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Well I finally got this one now....no flight level certifies a given car has it's original, authentic born-with engine, paint, etc etc etc.... I now understand that this is about typical factory production. So let say you have a 1971 454 car. The motor was stolen and was replaced with a different motor from a LS5 1971 car. The stamp was grinded out by the restorer and used his kit he got from Bubba's Broach Kits and stamped the vin onto the replaced motor.

Question.....IF during judging the stamp is OBVIOUS that it is a restamp and not from the factory. What happens next? Does judging stop or is there just a stamp pad deduction and classified as non typical factory production? Are is there a more severe penalty? Is the owner asked any questions? Someone mentioned a dunce cap being handed out to some folks. Is this one of those times? I am stopping here for now. Baby steps so i can understand.

For a '67, I know this well. Mine was a restoration engine, all correct except the engine pad, judged NTFP. I lost 88 points, and I have no idea what the judges thought, whispered to friends, etc. about the car, but I was not made to stand in a corner. However, I did have people (who are judges) tell me I should ditch the block and just get a blank one, I could recover part of the deduction. Sorry, way too expensive for a few points, IMO, and the block is a perfectly good one, proper date, casting, etc. I think Roy covered this issue well in some other threads.

Michael, agreed.

Marc-

There's a thousand and one reasons why a stamp pad might be blank or restamped. Most of the reasons are legit. Back when these were just cars and the thing under the hood was just an engine, nobody paid attention to the stamp pad and it's numbers. The blocks frequently were decked during overhaul whether they needed it or not. Some pads were left blank, some were restamped with what the shop noted on the pad before the decking and many more were simply re-identified with the rebuilder's own ID- possibly for warranty purposes. None of these engines were restamped with the intent to defraud, deceive or counterfeit.

Some worn out or failed engines were exchanged with similar freshly overhauled units removed from other cars, some with their original pad ID still intact. Have a look on that other website- there's almost a non-stop line up of people asking for decoding info. Again, no intent to counterfeit, obviously

When it comes to judging stamp pads in NCRS, all the above is taken into account. An incorrect or NTFP pad is handled no differently than any other component. A deduction is made and we move on. The slight difference is that the points for originality are 'all or nothing', and there's no condition judging. The points assignment is spelled out on the judging sheets you should have already memorized or at least have folded inside your wallet.

Since restamping and rebroaching also exists for the legitimate purpose of restoration but also unfortunately to deceive in some cases- this makes life difficult. If the pad is called for being NTFP, that in some people's mind casts a shadow over the car for being a 'stamper'. This would be a shame in the case of an original engine and possibly the owner would have been better off leaving the pad blank.

Then there's the case of a non-original engine being rebroached and restamped and it passes judging. Zero deduct. Did the owner commit fraud and deceit through counterfeiting? The answer is 'no' because the NCRS does not ask 'is this the born with engine' or insist that it be so to enter judging no different than any other component . Such act of restamping falls under the category of 'restoration', again no different than restoring any other component.

Going back to your original question, given that a car may have a replacement engine assembly but with a restored stamp pad- do you still think that NCRS authenticates cars?

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Michael, agreed.

Marc-

There's a thousand and one reasons why a stamp pad might be blank or restamped. Most of the reasons are legit. Back when these were just cars and the thing under the hood was just an engine, nobody paid attention to the stamp pad and it's numbers. The blocks frequently were decked during overhaul whether they needed it or not. Some pads were left blank, some were restamped with what the shop noted on the pad before the decking and many more were simply re-identified with the rebuilder's own ID- possibly for warranty purposes. None of these engines were restamped with the intent to defraud, deceive or counterfeit.

Some worn out or failed engines were exchanged with similar freshly overhauled units removed from other cars, some with their original pad ID still intact. Have a look on that other website- there's almost a non-stop line up of people asking for decoding info. Again, no intent to counterfeit, obviously

When it comes to judging stamp pads in NCRS, all the above is taken into account. An incorrect or NTFP pad is handled no differently than any other component. A deduction is made and we move on. The slight difference is that the points for originality are 'all or nothing', and there's no condition judging. The points assignment is spelled out on the judging sheets you should have already memorized or at least have folded inside your wallet.

Since restamping and rebroaching also exists for the legitimate purpose of restoration but also unfortunately to deceive in some cases- this makes life difficult. If the pad is called for being NTFP, that in some people's mind casts a shadow over the car for being a 'stamper'. This would be a shame in the case of an original engine and possibly the owner would have been better off leaving the pad blank.

Then there's the case of a non-original engine being rebroached and restamped and it passes judging. Zero deduct. Did the owner commit fraud and deceit through counterfeiting? The answer is 'no' because the NCRS does not ask 'is this the born with engine' or insist that it be so to enter judging no different than any other component . Such act of restamping falls under the category of 'restoration', again no different than restoring any other component.

Going back to your original question, given that a car may have a replacement engine assembly but with a restored stamp pad- do you still think that NCRS authenticates cars?

The NCRS does NOT authenticate cars. Once I read if a restorer can apply a trim tag/vin plate to a car with proper rivets and assembly and it can get through then that was all i needed to understand it is not an authentication.

This does not mean I do not have an understanding on how/why/when cars get branded and are not judged at the event. I am working on that aspect now. But, your statements to me and to others on that other forum that NCRS does not certify/authenticate cars is correct. I reconciliate with your statement that NCRS does not do such things during judging a car.

The marketplace unfortunately turns the other way and markets these awards at certifications in order to make money. Damn shame considering a lot of the parts during judging were removed and the buyer may not be aware of this.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

For a '67, I know this well. Mine was a restoration engine, all correct except the engine pad, judged NTFP. I lost 88 points, and I have no idea what the judges thought, whispered to friends, etc. about the car, but I was not made to stand in a corner. However, I did have people (who are judges) tell me I should ditch the block and just get a blank one, I could recover part of the deduction. Sorry, way too expensive for a few points, IMO, and the block is a perfectly good one, proper date, casting, etc. I think Roy covered this issue well in some other threads.

Thank you for sharing this with me and on the forum. I searched other threads and it seemed to be a very touchy subject since the owner of the car was not involved in the thread itself and posts were made by other who were not really "in the know" Those threads do not make me understand about pad deductions/and or branding of a car.

Although Terry McManmmon reported there were more than two cars that had issues I saw two and they were not judged and from what I seen were not judged.

It was obvious to me why one car was not judged. As for the other there was a lot of "forum" type talk with guesses on what happened. I am going to have to refer to that green card Terry was referring to which describes why a car would not be judged. I believe I have that card in my car somewhere. I will have to search for it.

As for your car Michael J. Since this was a restoration engine to your best knowledge it is the original car born with this engine you have in it. The judging does not determine this but it must threw you for a loop that you would get such a deduction knowing very well that the engine came with your car. Could you describe the pad to me and did you think at the time it "APPEARED" to look like factory stamping? It is possible you still think it does, that's okay. But I would like to know specifically why anyone would tell you that you should ditch the block and get a blank one. I guess I am asking once the people (who are judges) tell you what the issue was, were you like "OOOOOOOOOOOOO, I see it now. I totally missed this."

Are the threads that Roy covered you are referring to a discussion of YOUR stamp pad? If so please direct me. I was unable to locate any. I found some others but had nothing to do with your car. Best regards.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

The marketplace unfortunately turns the other way and markets these awards at certifications in order to make money. Damn shame considering a lot of the parts during judging were removed and the buyer may not be aware of this.

Marc,

accusations are not proven fact, not everyone takes parts off their cars after they are judged or when they sell them, it is a fact NCRS cannot control that type of situation. Neither can anyone else for that matter.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Marc,

accusations are not proven fact, not everyone takes parts off their cars after they are judged or when they sell them, it is a fact NCRS cannot control that type of situation. Neither can anyone else for that matter.

Very true, but Michael Ward has seen me present cars (plural) that were advertised at Top Flight and several parts were not correct on the car.

There is no way to know if the car top flighted without those parts or not but it is quite obvious they probably were.

Simply put, one should get ANY car they are considering purchasing an independent inspection and never assume that if the seller has a Top Flight certificate with the car that parts were not removed off of it after judging.

On one potential car I was interested in, and i mentioned this earlier that the car was advertised as being built to NCRS standards. The car was never judged. I do not think it is appropriate to advertise a car as such. And when I asked for a guarantee that it would Top Flight in its current condition they told me to pound sand. Needless to say, I did not purchase that car.

[Michael J.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

I think anyone who buys a '67 L71 is a bit sensitive about the engine. I bought mine 5 years ago from a well respected dealer, it was listed as "numbers matching" (no, I don't want to get into all that). I knew enough at the time, having just joined NCRS, to be suspicious, read the contract disclaimers, have it inspected, etc. I felt the sales price was fair and risk adjusted, and was not convinced it was the born with engine, but of course hoped so. After the Regional judging, I stepped back for a couple of years to have the car's history fully researched with previous owners, and of course the 2nd owner "verified" the car came to him with a replacement, dealer installed, motor. Mystery solved, NCRS judging vindicated. I don't know who did it or when it was done, but it is an excellent job. I have attached a photo of it.

As to the issue of restoration engines, this thread has some good discussion:

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...l-of-a-NOM-car

And if you look at reply #7 you will see some insights into why NCRS does not disqualify cars with them. The common wisdom is that it would be a real waste and a shame to throw away a perfectly good engine block just because the engine pad is not TFP.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Very true, but Michael Ward has seen me present cars (plural) that were advertised at Top Flight and several parts were not correct on the car.

There is no way to know if the car top flighted without those parts or not but it is quite obvious they probably were.

Simply put, one should get ANY car they are considering purchasing an independent inspection and never assume that if the seller has a Top Flight certificate with the car that parts were not removed off of it after judging.

On one potential car I was interested in, and i mentioned this earlier that the car was advertised as being built to NCRS standards. The car was never judged. I do not think it is appropriate to advertise a car as such. And when I asked for a guarantee that it would Top Flight in its current condition they told me to pound sand. Needless to say, I did not purchase that car.

Marc, there is no substitute for having the score sheets to look at and an inspection done by a professional, if you are using an award result as grounds for purchase. A car can loose 279 points and be a top flight if the bonus points were earned, a 279 point loss could mean a lot of things are not correct. But I still think that a true NCRS top flight car is in the top 5% of the cars in existence, with respect to quality and accuracy of what the marque was when new.

[Joe C.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Joe you know what really gets my goat....and this was my feeling before I even became a member here. I have seen cars advertised for sale with a comment that they were built to "NCRS standards" but never judged. What the heck does that mean? And the asking price is increased because it was restored to the "NCRS standards." When I asked one seller if they can give me a written guarantee that this car will TOP FLIGHT within 1 year of purchase with no modifications to the car by me I was told I was nuts and to go find another car. So you are going to tout and use the NCRS to "pre-certify" your car to make you car more "desirable" for a sale. Given what I know now, that is a very SLIMY thing to do and I think it should be illegal to do so quite frankly. That is what I am thinking. If I indeed am NUTS you can tell me. I can take it.

That MIGHT be an indication that aspects of the car have been "enhanced", and although the restoration is very faithful to original, one or more aspects of the car might not pass judging. So, no, you are not crazy.

The fact is that NCRS awards add value, and because of this, it is a situation rife with fraud and manipulation.

If you've been following my discussion with our former Judging Chairman, you'll probably realize that I see the different treatment of replacement trim tags and replacement engines as being unfair. Both of those conditions should be treated in the same way: as a points deduction, or as a disqualification.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

That MIGHT be an indication that aspects of the car have been "enhanced", and although the restoration is very faithful to original, one or more aspects of the car might not pass judging. So, no, you are not crazy.

The fact is that NCRS awards add value, and because of this, it is a situation rife with fraud and manipulation.

If you've been following my discussion with our former Judging Chairman, you'll probably realize that I see the different treatment of replacement trim tags and replacement engines as being unfair. Both of those conditions should be treated in the same way: as a points deduction, or as a disqualification.

Yes....I believe I got the basics now regarding what EXACTLY each award means and what standards need to meet in order to receive any award.

I am still cloudy on what it takes to get a car disqualified. I looked for that green card. I know I have it somewhere. I could only imagine (actually I don't have to imagine) as I saw it in Kissimmee what an owner feels like when told their car is not going to be judged. I am sure there are a lot more owners that genuinely surprised that they are told of such bad news and their purchase (which may or may not have been done under fraud or manipulation) finally caught up with them.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Marc, there is no substitute for having the score sheets to look at and an inspection done by a professional, if you are using an award result as grounds for purchase. A car can loose 279 points and be a top flight if the bonus points were earned, a 279 point loss could mean a lot of things are not correct. But I still think that a true NCRS top flight car is in the top 5% of the cars in existence, with respect to quality and accuracy of what the marque was when new.

Interesting you bring this up. On one of the many cars I considered for purchase several had the top flight certificate (or at least advertised to have one). One time I wanted to see the judging sheets on a car I was interested in because I wanted to know EXACTLY what was deducted off the car. I learned that the car just made top flight but when I inquired about the judging sheets I was told if this number is not good enough for you go find another car. If I am going to spend a lot of money on a purchase like this I think as a buyer it is a legitimate question to know exactly what was deducted off the car, ESPECIALLY if the car is being touted as a Top Flight winner. I passed on that car in a heartbeat and moved on to the next one.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

I think anyone who buys a '67 L71 is a bit sensitive about the engine. I bought mine 5 years ago from a well respected dealer, it was listed as "numbers matching" (no, I don't want to get into all that). I knew enough at the time, having just joined NCRS, to be suspicious, read the contract disclaimers, have it inspected, etc. I felt the sales price was fair and risk adjusted, and was not convinced it was the born with engine, but of course hoped so. After the Regional judging, I stepped back for a couple of years to have the car's history fully researched with previous owners, and of course the 2nd owner "verified" the car came to him with a replacement, dealer installed, motor. Mystery solved, NCRS judging vindicated. I don't know who did it or when it was done, but it is an excellent job. I have attached a photo of it.

As to the issue of restoration engines, this thread has some good discussion:

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...l-of-a-NOM-car

And if you look at reply #7 you will see some insights into why NCRS does not disqualify cars with them. The common wisdom is that it would be a real waste and a shame to throw away a perfectly good engine block just because the engine pad is not TFP.

It would appear now that as result of this thread....having a non original motor is analogous to not having the original 1971 gas cap to your car. They were both not born with the car. The only difference being is that if you find a 1971 gas cap from another car you can put it on your yours and potentially get full points for it. Not likely for a motor that was from another car. It would be difficult to restamp it perfectly to get it under the radar of the experienced judges. But the principle is the same.

I finally understand what the difference between typical factory production and born with this car originality all means and how the NCRS judges on the former. It is quite interesting, indeed.

[Joe C.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Interesting you bring this up. On one of the many cars I considered for purchase several had the top flight certificate (or at least advertised to have one). One time I wanted to see the judging sheets on a car I was interested in because I wanted to know EXACTLY what was deducted off the car. I learned that the car just made top flight but when I inquired about the judging sheets I was told if this number is not good enough for you go find another car. If I am going to spend a lot of money on a purchase like this I think as a buyer it is a legitimate question to know exactly what was deducted off the car, ESPECIALLY if the car is being touted as a Top Flight winner. I passed on that car in a heartbeat and moved on to the next one.

If I were looking to buy an NCRS trailer queen which was advertised as TF, then I'd ask as to whether the TF was earned at a chapter, regional, or national. Another way to "game" the system, is to get a TF at a chapter and immediately flip the car. I'm not saying that a chapter TF is worthless, only that the judging quality is considered superior at a regional or national. There are some very fine chapter meets that use judges, most of which judge at a national level, so it pays to know which chapter sponsored the meet. Although the judges may be excellent, the chances that something important may have been overlooked are greater at a chapter meet.

If the seller wouldn't show me the judging sheets, then that's another indication of a possible ploy, used to hide the fact that he MIGHT have "enhanced" the car. Certain options, such as leather seats, color change, or sidepipes, once detected, will not prevent an otherwise very high quality restoration from garnering a TF. A thorough inspection prior to purchase would be in order here.

As far as I know, other than for a safety issue, a disqualification will only occur if "intent to deceive" is discovered.