Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

[Reba W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Okay I been reading the replies carefully and I think I am starting to get things to start making sense.

There are some replies that are still over my head but that is OKAY....keep writing as this is good information and I will eventually get it.

In regards to my confusion. I think I seeing the light on this part.....

I was my thinking that original means born with this car....exactly what you were suggesting. In actuality the NCRS identifies parts as typical factory production.
Therefore, let's say I find a RC-26 cap to replace the reproduction on my car. Even though this was not the born with this car ORIGINAL PART it is a typical factory production part which could end up scoring full points on Originality and Condition.

Same example would be for a 1971 gas cap. You find you have a repro on your car. The born with this cap is GONE. But you find an actual original one in a junkyard that was born in a DIFFERENT car. You put this one on your own car and this would be classified as typical factory production. Even though you know as the owner it was not born with this car the NCRS judges on typical factory production and if this gas cap conforms to that and is in good condition, full points could be awarded on this part even though it was not born with the car.

The above examples do NOT authenticate anything. I get that now......

Does the NCRS authenticate the trim tag and Vin Pillar before judging? It seems Mike Ward said these are two items that are authenticated. The trim tag and VIN pillar. Now are these items have to BE BORN ON THIS CAR? If the trim tag is REAL and the VIN PILLAR is real but was switched out to a car that was restored would this still pass as typical factory production? This would be the same thing as the situation above as the radiator cap and gas cap......

By George, Marc,I think you've got it! (at least that part)

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Mike thank you for writing. I am still trying to catch up but I am making progress.

Interesting point about misusing the certificate to make money.....I actually have a real example of this.

I am going to share this as I didn't think it was all appropriate and/or fair and ended all discussion on the car.

In my search for my 1971 I was contacted by someone who wanted to know if I was interested in their car. They gave me information
on the car and an asking price. The car was recently restored and actually was quite nice. I tabled it for sometime and then later
on in the year the car crossed paths with me. I asked about the car as it was now advertised as top flighted. And the asking price
INCREASED significantly. I was like what????? And asked why the increase in price? I was told that the car earned top flight was appraised by NCRS judges and
that he should be asking a higher price. Appraised? Really? Does the NCRS appraise cars? I don't think so but I think this might fit in to what
you are saying Mike how some will abuse the certificate they own to make money.

[Dick W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Mike thank you for writing. I am still trying to catch up but I am making progress.

Interesting point about misusing the certificate to make money.....I actually have a real example of this.

I am going to share this as I didn't think it was all appropriate and/or fair and ended all discussion on the car.

In my search for my 1971 I was contacted by someone who wanted to know if I was interested in their car. They gave me information
on the car and an asking price. The car was recently restored and actually was quite nice. I tabled it for sometime and then later
on in the year the car crossed paths with me. I asked about the car as it was now advertised as top flighted. And the asking price
INCREASED significantly. I was like what????? And asked why the increase in price? I was told that the car earned top flight was appraised by NCRS judges and
that he should be asking a higher price. Appraised? Really? Does the NCRS appraise cars? I don't think so but I think this might fit in to what
you are saying Mike how some will abuse the certificate they own to make money.

Marc, the term appraisal is a very misused term. As a certified appraiser I run into this all the time. An appraisal, in the case, should be an unbiased opinion of value, no more, no less.

Merriam Webster defines it as
Full Definition of APPRAISAL

: an act or instance of appraising; especially : a valuation of property by the estimate of an authorized person

NCRS judging is in NO way an opinion of value, no matter what someone tells you. Does it add value? In some peoples eyes, who really care are the cars, yes, in the general population they would not give a tinkers d**n about NCRS and judging.

[Michael J.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

We all get into the car hobby for different reasons and we all have different priorities about why we like or want certain cars. That is just human nature. If your thing is "original" appearance, equipment, parts, etc. then you search for a car like that. If you just like a certain car and don't care how "original" it sits, then your value system is different. I will admit that I like C2s (and another make), and I like them to be as "original" as possible. Original as in appearance to the way they left the factory, not necessarily all born with parts. So I gravitated to NCRS (and another club for the other make) since that represents my interests. As we all know, the vast majority of Corvette owners out there are not NCRS members, nor do they even know much about NCRS. So the value of an NCRS judging certificate is lost on most people. But if you know, appreciate, and understand what NCRS does, that certificate has value, like it or not.

There are cars that are going to bring high prices, judging certificate or no. Rarity + desirability drives high prices, and I would venture a guess that the two '67 L88s that sold in the last year would have sold for $3+ million even without any NCRS certificates, as they were well documented far beyond what NCRS can provide. If a person wants to buy a '67 L71, '71 LS6, '63 ZO6, etc. without anything except an NCRS certificate, they are stupid. You can't fix stupid.

[Dick W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Very good post Michael. With the known history of some of the high dollar cars, it has surprised me that they brought as much money as they have.

[Michael J.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Very good post Michael. With the know history of some of the high dollar cars, it has surprised me that they brought as much money as they have.

The L88 cars are a good example of where your values lie. To me, because they are really just old, beat-up race cars (being a little biased here, as I don't like old race cars due to the fact they usually are rode hard and put away wet no matter how much was paid to rebuild them with spare parts) with very little if any DNA remaining from their original builds, I would have no interest in them. I have looked at some Shelby variants along the same lines that have sold for big money too (and up to $7 million for a Shelby), but I have no interest in such cars. However, what do I know? Somebody wanted to pay $3 million + for them anyway. As I said, we all have different perceptions of value and what we like and want.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Marc, the term appraisal is a very misused term. As a certified appraiser I run into this all the time. An appraisal, in the case, should be an unbiased opinion of value, no more, no less.

Merriam Webster defines it as
Full Definition of APPRAISAL

: an act or instance of appraising; especially : a valuation of property by the estimate of an authorized person

NCRS judging is in NO way an opinion of value, no matter what someone tells you. Does it add value? In some peoples eyes, who really care are the cars, yes, in the general population they would not give a tinkers d**n about NCRS and judging.

Well I do not know for certain if such an appraisal was done on the judging field. Perhaps as yourself these NCRS judges do appraisals and this was done independent of the day of judging. I just found it peculiar that the value of the car could increase so much $$$$ just from earning a top flight award. I do not believe that car has sold as of yet either.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

By George, Marc,I think you've got it! (at least that part)

Awesome, this means I am gonna dig deeper now. LOL! Watch out!

[William F.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Michael,
Don't agree with your Hillary Clinton like statement "what does it matter" if fakes get by NCRS. I realize it's tough, maybe impossible, to spot some of these made up cars, but doesn't mean we should not try. To not do the best decreases the prestige of NCRS and does a dis service to those who don't game the system..Whether we like it or not, there is a lot of money involved in our "hobby" cars and I for one don't want the fakes to have the same prestige-and value of the real deals. I think our volunteer members of NCRS are doing the best they can. As Shakespeare said,"Man's reach should exceed his grasp." Also nothing wrong with people like Al Grenning having American free market profit incentive to give advice.

[Don H.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

In regards to my confusion. I think I seeing the light on this part.....

I was my thinking that original means born with this car....exactly what you were suggesting. In actuality the NCRS identifies parts as typical factory production.
Therefore, let's say I find a RC-26 cap to replace the reproduction on my car. Even though this was not the born with this car ORIGINAL PART it is a typical factory production part which could end up scoring full points on Originality and Condition.

Same example would be for a 1971 gas cap. You find you have a repro on your car. The born with this cap is GONE. But you find an actual original one in a junkyard that was born in a DIFFERENT car. You put this one on your own car and this would be classified as typical factory production. Even though you know as the owner it was not born with this car the NCRS judges on typical factory production and if this gas cap conforms to that and is in good condition, full points could be awarded on this part even though it was not born with the car.

The above examples do NOT authenticate anything. I get that now......

Marc
it is starting to click in for you. One part you are not considering but should is that TFP does not have to mean original GM part, born on the car or added later. It can and does also apply to good reproduction parts. This is a big part of why flight judging does not validate or authenticate any car as original. You can build up a complete corvette from reproduction parts and if every part on it, including the Trim tag and VIN plate, the rivets that hold them, and every other part on the car and their attachment is undetectable from original factory parts, the car will be called TFP and receive full "originality" value. Never going to happen in the real world, but you get the concept. After some time passes and you get some judging experience, this will all make perfect sense but you are off to a great start!

ps. for Joe
you know my scenario is only a hypothetical for purposes of helping Marc understand how flight judging works. I do not know if there is ANY reproduction of ANY part, especially a TT or VIN plate that can pass the scrutiny of the most experienced classic vette experts and be declared TFP.

ps for Marc below.
a restamp that appears NTFP is declared such and deduction taken. Judging continues. If however the car is determined to be fraudulent due to horsepower alteration then judging stops. Usually there will be significant discussion between owner and TL and Judging chairman. No dunce cap is awarded.

[Joe C.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Joe,

you should attempt that explanation to those members that had their car branded counterfeit for a horsepower alteration, that did not meet the burden of proof. By the way there is no 27 point assignment to any part of the engine pad that I am aware of, and I was involved for a few years. Enough said.

Roy,
The stamp pad surface is 38 points, not 27 (which is why I put a question mark next to "27" in post #25). I knew that it is a small deduction, but had forgotten exactly what the value is.

Sure, some cars get spotted as counterfeit because some detail may not have been covered/modified by a hapless restorer, but you can be sure that there are plenty of cars that were done carefully and professionally, which successfully passed muster with a 38 point deduction for pad surface. And then there are the elite who have access to better equipment where the broach marks can be reproduced and are virtually undetectable, in which case the car goes through with no engine pad deductions.

[Joe C.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Marc
it is starting to click in for you. One part you are not considering but should is that TFP does not have to mean original GM part, born on the car or added later. It can and does also apply to good reproduction parts. This is a big part of why flight judging does not validate or authenticate any car as original. You can build up a complete corvette from reproduction parts and if every part on it, including the Trim tag and VIN plate, the rivets that hold them, and every other part on the car and their attachment is undetectable from original factory parts, the car will be called TFP and receive full "originality" value. Never going to happen in the real world, but you get the concept. After some time passes and you get some judging experience, this will all make perfect sense but you are off to a great start!

Don,

Are you sure that you can buy a repop TT that will be declared TFP by the Team Leader?
Now, some high dollar "players" are swapping in original TT's from scrapped cars, but that's another story.

Anybody that truly believes that the NCRS is a "hobby" in the pure sense is extremely naive or delusional. Same goes for those who believe that an NCRS TF award is not TANTAMOUNT to an appraisal (see Marc's very fine post #32). Why do all the car flippers first get their merchandise "appraised" by our very fine but underpaid judges, and then sell them at a premium price with the "added value" attached?

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

So which flight level is it that certifies a given car has it's original, authentic born-with engine, paint, body work, chrome, accessories, etc etc.

Well I finally got this one now....no flight level certifies a given car has it's original, authentic born-with engine, paint, etc etc etc.... I now understand that this is about typical factory production. So let say you have a 1971 454 car. The motor was stolen and was replaced with a different motor from a LS5 1971 car. The stamp was grinded out by the restorer and used his kit he got from Bubba's Broach Kits and stamped the vin onto the replaced motor.

Question.....IF during judging the stamp is OBVIOUS that it is a restamp and not from the factory. What happens next? Does judging stop or is there just a stamp pad deduction and classified as non typical factory production? Are is there a more severe penalty? Is the owner asked any questions? Someone mentioned a dunce cap being handed out to some folks. Is this one of those times? I am stopping here for now. Baby steps so i can understand.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Don,

Are you sure that you can buy a repop TT that will be declared TFP by the Team Leader?
Now, some high dollar "players" are swapping in original TT's from scrapped cars, but that's another story.

Anybody that truly believes that the NCRS is a "hobby" in the pure sense is extremely naive or delusional. Same goes for those who believe that an NCRS TF award is not TANTAMOUNT to an appraisal see Marc's very fine post #32. Why do all the car flippers first get their merchandise "appraised" by our very fine but underpaid judges, and then sell them with the "added value" attached.

Joe you know what really gets my goat....and this was my feeling before I even became a member here. I have seen cars advertised for sale with a comment that they were built to "NCRS standards" but never judged. What the heck does that mean? And the asking price is increased because it was restored to the "NCRS standards." When I asked one seller if they can give me a written guarantee that this car will TOP FLIGHT within 1 year of purchase with no modifications to the car by me I was told I was nuts and to go find another car. So you are going to tout and use the NCRS to "pre-certify" your car to make you car more "desirable" for a sale. Given what I know now, that is a very SLIMY thing to do and I think it should be illegal to do so quite frankly. That is what I am thinking. If I indeed am NUTS you can tell me. I can take it.

[Dick W.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Well I finally got this one now....no flight level certifies a given car has it's original, authentic born-with engine, paint, etc etc etc.... I now understand that this is about typical factory production. So let say you have a 1971 454 car. The motor was stolen and was replaced with a different motor from a LS5 1971 car. The stamp was grinded out by the restorer and used his kit he got from Bubba's Broach Kits and stamped the vin onto the replaced motor.

Question.....IF during judging the stamp is OBVIOUS that it is a restamp and not from the factory. What happens next? Does judging stop or is there just a stamp pad deduction and classified as non typical factory production? Are is there a more severe penalty? Is the owner asked any questions? Someone mentioned a dunce cap being handed out to some folks. Is this one of those times? I am stopping here for now. Baby steps so i can understand.

Marc you should purchase a Judging Reference Manual from the NCRS online store. Answers to moot your questions are spelled out there