Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

If I were looking to buy an NCRS trailer queen which was advertised as TF, then I'd ask as to whether the TF was earned at a chapter, regional, or national. Another way to "game" the system, is to get a TF at a chapter and immediately flip the car. I'm not saying that a chapter TF is worthless, only that the judging quality is considered superior at a regional or national. There are some very fine chapter meets that use judges, most of which judge at a national level, so it pays to know which chapter sponsored the meet. Although the judges may be excellent, the chances that something important may have been overlooked are greater at a chapter meet.

If the seller wouldn't show me the judging sheets, then that's another indication of a possible ploy, used to hide the fact that he MIGHT have "enhanced" the car. Certain options, such as leather seats, color change, or sidepipes, once detected, will not prevent an otherwise very high quality restoration from garnering a TF. A thorough inspection prior to purchase would be in order here.

As far as I know, other than for a safety issue, a disqualification will only occur if "intent to deceive" is discovered.

Have you ever heard the term, "High Top Flight?" Is it appropriate to use this description on a car that has earned 97% or higher? I have heard this thrown around from sellers and at car shows but do not see it as a specific award.

[Joe R.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Have you ever heard the term, "High Top Flight?" Is it appropriate to use this description on a car that has earned 97% or higher? I have heard this thrown around from sellers and at car shows but do not see it as a specific award.

Marc,

That just means a high percentage scoring top flight award. It's still a top flight.

Joe

[Joe C.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Have you ever heard the term, "High Top Flight?" Is it appropriate to use this description on a car that has earned 97% or higher? I have heard this thrown around from sellers and at car shows but do not see it as a specific award.

Strictly a marketing scheme, like "numbers' matching".
I don't believe that it is quantified anywhere in the NCRS literature;however, it's generally taken to mean anything over 97%. IF that 97% or higher was earned at a Regional or National meet, then the car qualifies for Duntov/McLellan/Hill award after successful PV and repeat Flight judging at a National.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

It would appear now that as result of this thread....having a non original motor is analogous to not having the original 1971 gas cap to your car. They were both not born with the car. The only difference being is that if you find a 1971 gas cap from another car you can put it on your yours and potentially get full points for it. Not likely for a motor that was from another car. It would be difficult to restamp it perfectly to get it under the radar of the experienced judges. But the principle is the same.

I finally understand what the difference between typical factory production and born with this car originality all means and how the NCRS judges on the former. It is quite interesting, indeed.

But Marc if you put that motor from the other car in your car and everything was correct except for the serial number the only thing you would lose is 25 points, if the judges caught the vin discrepancy, re-stamp it and you could lose as many as 88.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

But Marc if you put that motor from the other car in your car and everything was correct except for the serial number the only thing you would lose is 25 points, if the judges caught the vin discrepancy, re-stamp it and you could lose as many as 88.

Understood....
My concern is if it was determined that the motor was not born with the car you would get the Eight Ball award and the owner would have a REALLY bad day. I see this is not so as long as the restoration was done properly and there was no intent to deceive the judges at all.

[Michael J.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

The "deception" part is a bit tricky. Like I said, I have no idea what the judges thought or whispered about my engine, or the car in general. I might speculate they would look down on a car (and me by extension) if they think it is just another fake L71. Mine happens to have excellent documentation that it is an original L71, but the judges did not see any of that. So was I trying to "deceive" them? I wasn't because I didn't know anything about the engine as a fact at that time. But, now that I do know for a fact it is not the original born with engine, should I, like they do at Bloomington, tell the judges that before they judge the car again so as they will not think I am trying to slip one over on them?

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Strictly a marketing scheme, like "numbers' matching".
I don't believe that it is quantified anywhere in the NCRS literature;however, it's generally taken to mean anything over 97%. IF that 97% or higher was earned at a Regional or National meet, then the car qualifies for Duntov/McLellan/Hill award after successful PV and repeat Flight judging at a National.

Yeah, one seller was touting how they had a "High Top Flight" award and said that it is extremely difficult to achieve such an award. This was quite some time ago. They wanted stupid money for the car based on receiving this "High Top Flight." There was mention that the car was ready for additional judging. Now that you mention it I remember it received that score at a Chapter event so the seller didn't know what they were talking about. Well, I guess....the car is always ready for "additional judging" so maybe it was just a little misleading. But it would have to go to a Regional or National event. I also understand that you cannot use driving points either to use towards the 97% which makes it even tougher. In summary, the seller was using the 97% to justify the way over market price of the car. It was a nice car but way way overpriced. It would have put Bob Barker in the hospital as it was so overpriced!

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

The "deception" part is a bit tricky. Like I said, I have no idea what the judges thought or whispered about my engine, or the car in general. I might speculate they would look down on a car (and me by extension) if they think it is just another fake L71. Mine happens to have excellent documentation that it is an original L71, but the judges did not see any of that. So was I trying to "deceive" them? I wasn't because I didn't know anything about the engine as a fact at that time. But, now that I do know for a fact it is not the original born with engine, should I, like they do at Bloomington, tell the judges that before they judge the car again so as they will not think I am trying to slip one over on them?

Unless you are required to let the judges know that you knowingly have a NOM in your car right before they begin judging the car I do not think you need to say a word to them except hello, and thank you for judging my car. This would be analogous to me telling the judges, "I just want to let you know, the original 1971 gas cap you see on my car was found in a junkyard last week and I just put in on the car for judging purposes. It did not come with my car." You are not slipping one over on anyone if NOM are permissible during judging and it is the correct HP rating, etc.....There is nothing wrong with your car. You can still top flight with the motor you have in it. You may just need to spend some $$$$ to get other points to wipe out the deduction for the motor. It makes it more fun and involves a lot of good strategy on the owner's part.

[Michael J.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

I agree, I am not required to tell them anything about the car wrt where the parts came from or what I know about them. In fact, I was admonished by a chief judge once for divulging that my '66 Mosport L79 was not an original side pipe car (AO Smith body, and it was a hot day on the parking lot and the poor guy would have to lay on the asphalt to look), because they were not 100% certain no AO Smith bodies had side pipes and what if mine was originally a side pipe car?, so let the judges do their job without additional info. But I am really talking about the intangible "feeling" judges may get about a car they perceive as "fake". Does it effect other items on the car as they judge them, or can they remain totally objective about everything?

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

I agree, I am not required to tell them anything about the car wrt where the parts came from or what I know about them. In fact, I was admonished by a chief judge once for divulging that my '66 Mosport L79 was not an original side pipe car (AO Smith body, and it was a hot day on the parking lot and the poor guy would have to lay on the asphalt to look), because they were not 100% certain no AO Smith bodies had side pipes and what if mine was originally a side pipe car?, so let the judges do their job without additional info. But I am really talking about the intangible "feeling" judges may get about a car they perceive as "fake". Does it effect other items on the car as they judge them, or can they remain totally objective about everything?

From my experience from being an observer judge, if the judges are following the guidelines as they are supposed to do, one part of the car should not effect judging on another part of the car. The owner is there all the time and if he or she feels that this is happening all they need to do is discuss with the team leader. These judges are human and perhaps they aren't intentionally doing additional deductions but simply are not doing the job they are assigned to or do not understand (maybe they are new judges). Of all the judges I met in Kissimmee there is NOT one that I would suspect that would penalize a car because they don't like it. Nor do I think they would want to get on any Team Leaders negative radar either. I know that the Team Leader I had wouldn't tolerate this at all and if this was brought to the attention of the Team Leader by the owner he or she was being punished and the team leader agreed I believe there would be hell to pay.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

I also think your attitude as an owner is important. Again we are all human and I think there is more of a chance the judges would dislike the owner than the car. I saw all types of personalities with owners. On the contrary, all the judges I met were on the same page personality wise.

I interacted with owners as an observer judge who had a postive aura around them. Then you had some that were just downright negative about everything. I avoided discussing anything with them.

Personally, this should be a serious but FUN process. If someone is too light skinned and can't take criticism of their car then this process really is not for them. I heard one owner say how silly some of the deductions were and was clearly distraught that this was happening. It was actually complaining and whining. Well if you don't agree simply go to the team leader. What is the big deal? I think it is a bad idea to say "I don't agree with you" to the judges when they go over the deductions. Doing so casts a shadow on yourself and who knows, perhaps that alone may actually hurt you. Again we are dealing with humans that carry emotions. Much easier to take the Team Leader to the side and just tell him your concerns. Isn't that what he is there for?

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

We have beat this dead horse many times before. Marc read the thread that Mike is talking about & especially my comment # 10. You do have knack for keeping threads alive long after they should have died here & on the CF. After 70 posts don't know what anyone can say to help you any more.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

We have beat this dead horse many times before. Marc read the thread that Mike is talking about & especially my comment # 10. You do have knack for keeping threads alive long after they should have died here & on the CF. After 70 posts don't know what anyone can say to help you any more.

Why the negativity? I was answering Michael Johnson's questions just now and sharing my experience. If you do not like my threads the ignore feature is awesome. Best regards.

[Roy S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Understood....
My concern is if it was determined that the motor was not born with the car you would get the Eight Ball award and the owner would have a REALLY bad day. I see this is not so as long as the restoration was done properly and there was no intent to deceive the judges at all.

Ask the documented Duntov recipients if they got thrown behind the eight ball! Actually some/most prefer honesty.

[Marc S.]

Re: Is having a car judged at NCRS a form of authentication?

Ask the documented Duntov recipients if they got thrown behind the eight ball! Actually some/most prefer honesty.

Actually I misspoke about that. I meant to say there was something more drastic (eg a horsepower change which would result in the car getting banned/branded). Sorry about that.
It is okay to have a motor not born with the car. Best regards.