Disqualification: VIN Tag

[Bruce B.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Can anyone give me a opinion on this posting I made previously? See below.

It is my understanding that if there is a problem with the VIN the owner has the option to remove the car from the judging field and the car is not recorded as being judged.
That allows the owner to correct the difficiency and have the car judged at a later date.
Was that the case with this car?
Someone with more knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Michael G.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

why can't the judges at the meet just pick up their cell phone and call the NCRS headquarters for a professional opinion of questions like this ???

Clem....no need to pick up phone. This event has the most experienced judges there are with the NCRS. Most all all master judges. Headquarters for the NCRS is more the administrative end. This isn't an isolated incident...it's happened before. It's not one judges decision to make this type of call as other judges opinions have input before call is made. Tough for both owner and judges making the call.

[Mike T.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Yes Bruce this happened at Valparaiso this fall

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

The car in question is a '65 Maroon/maroon Convertible with 327/350hp engine. Why would anyone remove a VIN tag...to paint the car, perhaps? There is, in my opinion, rampant scams with high end cars, such as big block cars and rare-optioned cars. But, I just don't see the profit motive on this car.
-Clark

Clark------

There is a hugely significant reason for VIN tag removal and re-attachment. For the most part, this sort of thing happened years ago but for a variety of reasons could still occur today. Let's say that one had a Corvette that was wrecked and without insurance or a case in which one purchases a wrecked Corvette. In both cases one has the an unusable car but one has the VIN tag and the ownership certificate for that car. If one then acquires another Corvette via theft, transfers the VIN tag from the owned but wrecked car to the stolen car, and disposes of the original VIN tag from the stolen car, then the stolen car has a "new identity" and, based on the paperwork, "belongs" to the person whose name is on that paperwork. This sort of thing was an early version of what we know today as "identity theft" but instead of a PERSON having their identity stolen, a VEHICLE has its identity stolen.

It's my belief that this sort of thing is a lot more common than folks think. Yes, a lot of the "identity theft" occurred years ago but the cars are still out there with stolen identities. They may pass through a whole lot of owners with the folks responsible for the identity theft long gone and forgotten but the cars are no more legal now than they were then.

That's why I tell folks that before they even consider the purchase of ANY high dollar collector car, particularly a Corvette, they take the trouble to check out the frame VIN derivative. It's not perfect protection because even frames can be replaced on body-on-frame cars but it's extremely important to do. If the frame numbers don't match the VIN plate or if there are no frame numbers, do the following:

1) Don't even consider purchasing the car AT ANY PRICE;

2) Notify the state of registration's DMV or Highway Patrol

[Mike E.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

According to Noland's survey, all 65's up to #7793 used regular pop rivets. After that, there was mixed usage between regular and rosette rivets. The last car reported using regular rivets was #9990.

Wow I find this very interesting...My car that I've owned for over 35 years is after #7793 (maybe built the same day) and it has what I would call regular pop rivets. Would it be questioned if I were to ever have it judged?



Mike

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Wow I find this very interesting...My car that I've owned for over 35 years is after #7793 (maybe built the same day) and it has what I would call regular pop rivets. Would it be questioned if I were to ever have it judged?



Mike

Mike-----


I doubt that Nolan's survey information is considered definitive as far as judging goes. In fact, I don't even think that Nolan considers is definitive; it's just what he found as part of his survey which certainly didn't include every car built. 7793 is just the last car included in his survey that had the plain pop rivets, not necessarily the last car built with them.

[William L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

The car in question is a '65 Maroon/maroon Convertible with 327/350hp engine. Why would anyone remove a VIN tag...to paint the car, perhaps? There is, in my opinion, rampant scams with high end cars, such as big block cars and rare-optioned cars. But, I just don't see the profit motive on this car.
-Clark

I remember not long ago, watching an episode of Chasing Classic Cars. They were at a Auction in Connecticut. The State Police were questioning some cars and their Vin Tags. The police were threatening to shut down the Auction. The guy from F40 M0t0r Sports made the comment that "its no big deal the Vin Tags are removed for paint all the time". I thought to myself what an idiot he is!!
It just goes show ya, be careful if you take your car to a restoration shop.

[Jim D.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Mike-----


I doubt that Nolan's survey information is considered definitive as far as judging goes. In fact, I don't even think that Nolan considers is definitive; it's just what he found as part of his survey which certainly didn't include every car built. 7793 is just the last car included in his survey that had the plain pop rivets, not necessarily the last car built with them.

The last car in his survey that had pop rivets was #9990. All had pop rivets up to and including #7793. #7811 was the first one in the survey reporting rosette rivets however, #7886, #8495, #8875 and #9532 reported having pop rivets so there was not a definitive changeover date.

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Loren, I wrote all the information that the owner of the car told me. He told me that it was over the rivets but I did not ask for more information. I was sorry for the guy and didn't want to add to his grief by asking questions. I have attended four previous meets at all three levels and just had not heard of this happening, before yesterday.

Clark------

Actually, I think that more information is necessary and if the owner is really interested in sorting it all out, he should be more than willing to provide it. Was the issue over plain pop rivets versus rosette rivets and what is the serial number of the car? That, alone, might address important issues.

Frankly, I do not understand how anyone can discern the actual originality of rivets assuming that correctly configured rivets are installed. The plain pop-rivets are easily obtained; just about every configuration of these ever made is rather easily available. The rosette style rivets are more difficult to obtain but even those are really not all that difficult. Of course, if some neophyte installs some sort of "oddball" rivet, that's another story This sort of thing could easily have occurred in the "old days" (when a lot of this "identity theft" was perpetrated) because there was not a lot of focus or attention paid to rivet configuration, even by local authorities.

Like I say, though, if the owner is interested in informed opinions more information is necessary. A photo of the VIN plate installation would be ideal.

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

The last car in his survey that had pop rivets was #9990. All had pop rivets up to and including #7793. #7811 was the first one in the survey reporting rosette rivets however, #7886, #8495, #8875 and #9532 reported having pop rivets so there was not a definitive changeover date.

Jim-----


I have not looked at the survey. However, for a change like this I'm surprised there was not a definitive change-over date even though we may not be able to determine what it was. This sort of change was obviously instituted to improve security of the VIN plates. One would think it was done with some "veracity". I would think that instructions would have been clear and firm on this and there would have been no issue of "using up stock" of existing rivets since the value of those rivets would have been trivial and they were probably used elsewhere in the Corvette build anyway. But, I certainly was not there and you never know.

One more thing: I wonder if cars #7886, 8495, and 9532 always had the plain style pop rivets? Might they have been early victims of "identity theft" (i.e. before rosette rivets were available outside the car factories and before anyone really paid attention to them anyway). Like I mentioned, I really think that this sort of thing occurred a lot more than folks think.

[Arland D.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Gentlemen,

This is not the first time or the last time this issue will come up at a regional meet. The judges, National Team Leader, and National Judging Chairman should have all been involved in the decision. The owner should soon receive a letter from the judging office with details of any disqualification and any recourse (if possible) to address the issues that were identified. This is the type of situation that is taken very seriously and several individuals would be consulted prior to making the call.

[Dale C.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Look at "1965 Vin Tag Rivets" thread on 13 May 2012. How could they take that rivet change over very serious if they were mixing the rivets?
I hope they, judges, were on sure footing if the rivets were the call for busting the car. Do we sometimes get more wrapped up on stuff than did the folks on the actual production line?
Dale

[John D.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

If you encounter a suspicious vin tag or an issue with one the next step might be to check out the number on the frame to see if it is a match with the tag.

Now old JD doesn't get involved with the judging process much but does know that a beginner in the judging process should first take his Corvette to a chapter meet.

Oops. I should have read all the posts. Joe Lucia already mentioned bout checking the number on the frame.

[Michael J.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Clem....no need to pick up phone. This event has the most experienced judges there are with the NCRS. Most all all master judges. Headquarters for the NCRS is more the administrative end. This isn't an isolated incident...it's happened before. It's not one judges decision to make this type of call as other judges opinions have input before call is made. Tough for both owner and judges making the call.

Very true, I would suspect that the judges at this regional, like many larger regionals, are national judges too, the same that worked San Diego, etc. The judge quality and judgement is hardly any different in these kind of regionals from a national meet. So a top flight score here is the same as nationals I would suspect.

[Mike E.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Very true, I would suspect that the judges at this regional, like many larger regionals, are national judges too, the same that worked San Diego, etc. The judge quality and judgement is hardly any different in these kind of regionals from a national meet. So a top flight score here is the same as nationals I would suspect.

You're "suspect" is suspect. The highest quality judging is at the National. Your rationale could led one to paying the same for a regional top flight car as you would for the same car having a national top flight. I, for one, would never do that.