Disqualification: VIN Tag

[Michael J.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Guys don’t take this wrong but do take it as fact. NCRS officials needed to make a determination of whether a car should or should not be removed from the judging process are always present at the regional and national meets.
1) It is no one’s business but the owner and NCRS
2) There was no car disqualified for a VIN tag issue at the Frisco Regional
3) There was no car disqualified at the Frisco Regional because of rivets on the VIN tag
4) There were some issues with a few cars at the Regional there always are, there was a car that we suspended judging on for reasons we will discuss and handle with the owner.
5) I personally think it is appalling that any member would disparage another member’s car on this tech board - without knowing any of the actual facts.
Do not ask me for the details because it does not involve anyone involved in this post, this will be handled between the owner and NCRS.

Thanks Roy, this then should close this issue and thread.

[Jeff P.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Well i think you should check ebay everyone knows now !!

[Clem Z.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

since the state has access to nationwide VIN info why would they authorize a title for a car with a suspect VIN ???

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Guys don’t take this wrong but do take it as fact. NCRS officials needed to make a determination of whether a car should or should not be removed from the judging process are always present at the regional and national meets.
1) It is no one’s business but the owner and NCRS
2) There was no car disqualified for a VIN tag issue at the Frisco Regional
3) There was no car disqualified at the Frisco Regional because of rivets on the VIN tag
4) There were some issues with a few cars at the Regional there always are, there was a car that we suspended judging on for reasons we will discuss and handle with the owner.
5) I personally think it is appalling that any member would disparage another member’s car on this tech board - without knowing any of the actual facts.
Do not ask me for the details because it does not involve anyone involved in this post, this will be handled between the owner and NCRS.

Roy-----


I completely fail to see where anyone has disparaged anyone's car in this thread. Mostly, it's been a discussion of what amounts to hypothetical examples of various forms of VIN plate fraud with some discussion of judging issues thrown in for good measure, but completely peripheral to the original question posed. This VIN-related discussion was stimulated by the original question but that's as far as I see it goes. I looked back through every post in this thread and I see nowhere that anyone said any of this applied to the car in question. In fact, as far as I know, only the original poster even knows of the particular owner and car.

I also disagree that "it is no one's business but the owner and NCRS". If there is a question of some irregularity with the VIN plate, it's an issue for the state's DMV and/or law enforcement. In California, if one knows about or suspects a crime, one is obligated under the law to report it. If one does not, one is guilty of a crime for so not-reporting. The laws of other states may be different but I expect there is a lot of commonality in this area. In my mind, any VIN-related issue which could disqualify a car from NCRS judging would also raise the strong possibility of a violation of the law. Conversely, if a VIN plate is considered legal by a state's DMV (e.g. a reproduction VIN plate approved and installed under DMV supervision), then I don't see any reason why the car cannot be judged with appropriate deductions for any deviation from original the VIN plate or its installation evidences

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

since the state has access to nationwide VIN info why would they authorize a title for a car with a suspect VIN ???

clem-----


With respect to the vast majority of states, they would not. There might be a few exceptions, though.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Bruce-----


The laws of every state are different and I can't really say what each would do. However, I do believe there are some elements that are fairly common among sta

In California the basic principle involves "numbers used for registration purposes". In California, it is legal to re-attach an original or reproduction VIN plate to a vehicle as long as it is approved by and done under DMV supervision. Presumably, this would require the owner to provide proof-positive that the VIN number is the one originally assigned to the car by the manufacturer. Just how one does this I do not know. If a car were to show up with a state-issued VIN, an owner's certificate showing that VIN and an owner wanting to attach a reproduction VIN plate with the car's original VIN, I strongly suspect the owner would get absolutely nowhere. But, let's say the state did allow it and revised the records to reflect this. In that case, the state-issued VIN tag could be removed because it would no longer display a number used for registration purposes.

It is or AT LEAST WAS ALSO IN iNDIANA. YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS TO DO IT THOUGH.

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

It is or AT LEAST WAS ALSO IN iNDIANA. YOU HAVE TO JUMP THROUGH HOOPS TO DO IT THOUGH.

Ken------


I'm sure it's exactly the same in California. While the law ALLOWS it, it does not REQUIRE DMV to do it. I'll bet the VAST majority of requests are denied. I'll bet 99% of the cases in which it's allowed involve cases in which a VIN plate is temporarily removed from a vehicle for some reason and that same VIN plate is to be re-attached with no change to the car's assigned VIN. Requests that involve a change to the car's VIN (e.g. from a state-issued VIN to a reproduction of the "original" VIN tag) are probably approved about as often as the people in hell get a glass of ice water.

[Don H.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Thanks Roy, this then should close this issue and thread.

Roy-----


I completely fail to see where anyone has disparaged anyone's car in this thread. Mostly, it's been a discussion of what amounts to hypothetical examples of various forms of VIN plate fraud with some discussion of judging issues thrown in for good measure, but completely peripheral to the original question posed. This VIN-related discussion was stimulated by the original question but that's as far as I see it goes. I looked back through every post in this thread and I see nowhere that anyone said any of this applied to the car in question. In fact, as far as I know, only the original poster even knows of the particular owner and car.

I also disagree that "it is no one's business but the owner and NCRS". If there is a question of some irregularity with the VIN plate, it's an issue for the state's DMV and/or law enforcement. In California, if one knows about or suspects a crime, one is obligated under the law to report it. If one does not, one is guilty of a crime for so not-reporting. The laws of other states may be different but I expect there is a lot of commonality in this area. In my mind, any VIN-related issue which could disqualify a car from NCRS judging would also raise the strong possibility of a violation of the law. Conversely, if a VIN plate is considered legal by a state's DMV (e.g. a reproduction VIN plate approved and installed under DMV supervision), then I don't see any reason why the car cannot be judged with appropriate deductions for any deviation from original the VIN plate or its installation evidences

It doesn't look like the issue and the thread are closed (yet).

Everyone at the show who paid attention to the mid years knows which car is referenced, and the owners name/home town are listed in the show information booklet.

[Dick W.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

The other thing I remember about that Conn. auction was that the state required the auction company to add a clause in all sales contracts that if the winning bidder had troubles transferring title or getting the car registered in their state, the auction company had to refund their money. That seemed like a great idea and something all auction companies should offer on these questionable VIN reproduction VIN tags.

Selling a motor vehicle without delivering a title in NC is a felony. Conversely selling anything such as a vehicle or real estate for that matter, without a marketable title would be grounds for canceling the auction, sale, etc of a particular item. I would think that the courts would take a very dim view of the sale.

UCC 3-238, which has been adopted by forty nine states, deals with contracts. When you raise your hand up to bid, you have a valid and enforceable contract with the auctioneer until someone places a higher bid. Failure to deliver title by the auctioneer/seller is a failure on their part to complete the contract, thereby making it null and void.

[Michael J.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Dick, I was really thinking this had to do with getting the car and what may look like a valid title, but in some states, like mine for instance, the State Police do the VIN inspection on the car. And, speaking from some experience, if the trooper looks at the VIN plate that may indeed match the title, but the trooper determines the VIN plate has been tampered with or replaced in what the trooper would judge as an "unacceptable" plate or procedure (as many restorations sometimes show), then they can refuse to transfer title and register the car unless special sworn affidavits are produced or other extraordinary things produced for verification. This would cause the buyer to void the deal under the special Conn. circumstance above, and get their money back, no questions, which I think is the way it should be.

[Roy S.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Roy-----


I completely fail to see where anyone has disparaged anyone's car in this thread. Mostly, it's been a discussion of what amounts to hypothetical examples of various forms of VIN plate fraud with some discussion of judging issues thrown in for good measure, but completely peripheral to the original question posed. This VIN-related discussion was stimulated by the original question but that's as far as I see it goes. I looked back through every post in this thread and I see nowhere that anyone said any of this applied to the car in question. In fact, as far as I know, only the original poster even knows of the particular owner and car.

I also disagree that "it is no one's business but the owner and NCRS". If there is a question of some irregularity with the VIN plate, it's an issue for the state's DMV and/or law enforcement. In California, if one knows about or suspects a crime, one is obligated under the law to report it. If one does not, one is guilty of a crime for so not-reporting. The laws of other states may be different but I expect there is a lot of commonality in this area. In my mind, any VIN-related issue which could disqualify a car from NCRS judging would also raise the strong possibility of a violation of the law. Conversely, if a VIN plate is considered legal by a state's DMV (e.g. a reproduction VIN plate approved and installed under DMV supervision), then I don't see any reason why the car cannot be judged with appropriate deductions for any deviation from original the VIN plate or its installation evidences

Joe read my post there was no VIN tag issue or vin tag rivet issue. When the original poster mentioned a car that has those problems and it did not what is it if it is not disparaging it?

[Roy S.]

[Bruce B.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Yes Bruce this happened at Valparaiso this fall

Mike,
Thanks
Bruce B

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Joe read my post there was no VIN tag issue or vin tag rivet issue. When the original poster mentioned a car that has those problems and it did not what is it if it is not disparaging it?

Roy-----

I interpreted the original poster as simply reporting either what he had seen or what he had been told by the owner. Of course, he may have been incorrect or he may have been told something that was not accurate. However, I don't think he was trying to be malicious. In any event, my response to him was based upon what he stated, whether he was correct or not.

[Domenic T.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

I bought a wrecked 67/435 in 1971 for 550.00 with front end damage from a vette dealer (JD corvette) in CA. The car was worth 1700.00 in good condition but the cost to repair it exceeded the 1700.00 so it was totaled.
I did a frame on restoration on it back then.

I am doing a frame off now and decided to have the frame #s checked and documented while the body was off. I obtained the paperwork and tried to get a officer to check it in my shop and they would not . They suggegted I do it at DMV after it was finished with the body on.

I then hired a professional vin verification guy and he did it but was mostly interested in my purchase paperwork and title which were all inplace. I don't think he saw the #s on the frame, he was mostly interested in my paperwork.

What happens to these guys that buy a repo frame and only have a riveted vin tag to proove their case? Seems to me that that sacred tin plate that is not permanent gets a lot more attention!

How would it work if a vette was stolen for the frame and all it's goodies and then installed under a riveted tin plate in a body? They used to check engine #s foe theft but no one cares about that or even checks.

I asked for a theft report on my 67 BB to see if it was stolen & wrecked but there are no records kept after a period of time.

When owning a 67/435 you are presumed guilty of falsification untill proven inocent.

I have seen CA state tags and they have the original vin #on them with a CA after it.

DOM

I have gone to DMV and they haven't a clue as to where to look. I bought some old motorcycles from a guy and had the police check the #s at his place and they recorded the #s on the shocks. When I tried to show them where the #s were they treared me as if I was trying to pull one over on them.