Disqualification: VIN Tag

[Tom D.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Sorta Related... http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2012/...1966-corvette/

Watch out in NY.

[Michael J.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

You're "suspect" is suspect. The highest quality judging is at the National. Your rationale could led one to paying the same for a regional top flight car as you would for the same car having a national top flight. I, for one, would never do that.

I can't speak to values of a car that has only regional top flight vs. one that has national top flight, I don't have enough price data to tell me that, maybe you do, but speaking from experience there are many more factors involved in price than regional vs. national. All I am going by is my personal experience where the regional and national judges were almost identical, maybe they are just pulling punches and trying to be nice guys at the regional and going for blood at the national, I can't tell that either. But are you saying that these judges in question here at the Lone Star Regionals are lower quality and less experienced than national judges would be and thus may have messed this car up?

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Sorta Related... http://www.corvetteblogger.com/2012/...1966-corvette/

Watch out in NY.

Tom-----


In this case, I would call the offense a "technical violation". Some might even call it "restoration" but it's a form of restoration the law does not allow. The thing I don't understand is how the fellow that applied the "reproduction" VIN tag to the car got the car re-titled under the original VIN number. However he did it, that's where I believe the fraud took place. If the VIN tag were applied to the car but not used for registration purposes I don't think that a violation would have occurred. In any event, this was obviously not a case of a stolen car being given a new identity. Actually, the latter sort of thing is far easier to do than what was done in this case.

[John S.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

A fellow Corvette collector/NCRS member had his car disqualified today because the judge told him that it was apparent that the VIN tag had been removed at some point and then reinstalled. I believe the issue was NTF rivets, he told me. The owner was shocked since he didn't know there was a problem with his car and this was the first time he had brought it to a NCRS meet.

I have tried to look in my various NCRS manuals/guides and cannot find this issue. Is this correct, to not judge a car on the showfloor due to NTF rivets on the VIN tag? The owner of the car is going to contact the seller to get a clarification since he was told that the car was "matching numbers". Of course, I told the owner that matching numbers usually has nothing to do with VIN and/or trim tags.
-Clark

would the judges rule the same if a C1 tag was taken off? when repainting a car how many people in the past would not take off two screws to remove the tag? similiar problems occur with engine stamps. when viewing the numbers for inspection don't you think a lot of people used sand paper to view the numbers. in most cases the only numbers that are ganged stamped with even depth are blocks that have been restamped. as fast as the stamping process was there are a lot of gang stamps were several numbers on the end cannot be clearly read. it gets fustrating when a judge sees small abrasion marks on the lightly struck numbers and states the pad has been tampered with.

[Michael G.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

You're "suspect" is suspect. The highest quality judging is at the National. Your rationale could led one to paying the same for a regional top flight car as you would for the same car having a national top flight. I, for one, would never do that.

Several of these Regional judges you elude to being "suspect" also judge at the national level and are the best of the best. Difference being National judging events have a higher concentration of judging experience. Believe me....there are no punches pulled at Regional events....no soft stuff and are as demanding as National judging.

[Mark D.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

[Dick W.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

I remember not long ago, watching an episode of Chasing Classic Cars. They were at a Auction in Connecticut. The State Police were questioning some cars and their Vin Tags. The police were threatening to shut down the Auction. The guy from F40 M0t0r Sports made the comment that "its no big deal the Vin Tags are removed for paint all the time".

Hmmmm.......ask a certain classic car dealer in Springfield OH about that.

[Michael J.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Several of these Regional judges you elude to being "suspect" also judge at the national level and are the best of the best. Difference being National judging events have a higher concentration of judging experience. Believe me....there are no punches pulled at Regional events....no soft stuff and are as demanding as National judging.

Thank you, I have always thought the regional judges are top notch, and most are national as well. The chapter judges can be a bit dodgy, but most chapters also have master judges who can help out with the more inexperienced ones. All in all, hard to find many judges that are not good.

[Mike E.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

I can't speak to values of a car that has only regional top flight vs. one that has national top flight, I don't have enough price data to tell me that, maybe you do, but speaking from experience there are many more factors involved in price than regional vs. national. All I am going by is my personal experience where the regional and national judges were almost identical, maybe they are just pulling punches and trying to be nice guys at the regional and going for blood at the national, I can't tell that either. But are you saying that these judges in question here at the Lone Star Regionals are lower quality and less experienced than national judges would be and thus may have messed this car up?

C'mon! You're putting words in my mouth that I didn't begin to say! I've been national 61-62 team leader and led judging at chapters, regionals, and nationals. I appreciated the experience and effort of every single judge at every one of those levels. A car will be more severely analyzed at a national than a regional. I stand by my words and cast no aspersions at any judges.

[Bruce B.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Joe,
Assuming a car is stolen and stripped (VIN tag missing) and then the owner got it back through the insurance company the state them could issue a "reissued state VIN tag" using the original VIN on the title ( and also stamped on the frame assuming the car was legitimate when originally titled).
Then at some point a reproduction tag could be revited to the car using the number on the title. Of course the ugly state issued tag would have to be removed...
Is this illegal?
It could be construed as illeagal although the configuration of the VIN tag is the same as when the car was built.
But we all know that we don't mess with VIN tags.

[Michael J.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

I remember not long ago, watching an episode of Chasing Classic Cars. They were at a Auction in Connecticut. The State Police were questioning some cars and their Vin Tags. The police were threatening to shut down the Auction. The guy from F40 M0t0r Sports made the comment that "its no big deal the Vin Tags are removed for paint all the time". I thought to myself what an idiot he is!!
It just goes show ya, be careful if you take your car to a restoration shop.

I remember seeing that show. They showed VIN tags being inspected and many were obviously "reproduction restoration" VIN tags all shiny with new screws and/or rivets. I can't believe anyone would buy a car with such obvious VIN tampering. Wayne C. was really showing his "marketing" face there, not his collector face by making such stupid comments.

[Dick W.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Joe,
Assuming a car is stolen and stripped (VIN tag missing) and then the owner got it back through the insurance company the state them could issue a "reissued state VIN tag" using the original VIN on the title ( and also stamped on the frame assuming the car was legitimate when originally titled).
Then at some point a reproduction tag could be revited to the car using the number on the title. Of course the ugly state issued tag would have to be removed...
Is this illegal?
It could be construed as illeagal although the configuration of the VIN tag is the same as when the car was built.
But we all know that we don't mess with VIN tags.

ILLEGAL! !!!!! Vehicle id numbers are sacred territory. Either original or state issued are the only thing recognized under the eyes of the law. Tampering with VIN numers is a Federal felony.

[Joe L.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

Joe,
Assuming a car is stolen and stripped (VIN tag missing) and then the owner got it back through the insurance company the state them could issue a "reissued state VIN tag" using the original VIN on the title ( and also stamped on the frame assuming the car was legitimate when originally titled).
Then at some point a reproduction tag could be revited to the car using the number on the title. Of course the ugly state issued tag would have to be removed...
Is this illegal?
It could be construed as illeagal although the configuration of the VIN tag is the same as when the car was built.
But we all know that we don't mess with VIN tags.

Bruce-----


The laws of every state are different and I can't really say what each would do. However, I do believe there are some elements that are fairly common among states.

In California the basic principle involves "numbers used for registration purposes". In California, it is legal to re-attach an original or reproduction VIN plate to a vehicle as long as it is approved by and done under DMV supervision. Presumably, this would require the owner to provide proof-positive that the VIN number is the one originally assigned to the car by the manufacturer. Just how one does this I do not know. If a car were to show up with a state-issued VIN, an owner's certificate showing that VIN and an owner wanting to attach a reproduction VIN plate with the car's original VIN, I strongly suspect the owner would get absolutely nowhere. But, let's say the state did allow it and revised the records to reflect this. In that case, the state-issued VIN tag could be removed because it would no longer display a number used for registration purposes.

[Michael J.]

Re: Disqualification: VIN Tag

The other thing I remember about that Conn. auction was that the state required the auction company to add a clause in all sales contracts that if the winning bidder had troubles transferring title or getting the car registered in their state, the auction company had to refund their money. That seemed like a great idea and something all auction companies should offer on these questionable VIN reproduction VIN tags.

[Roy S.]