aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

[Jim L.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

I usually run 100LL in my 1962 FI but I plan to do some road trips and can't carry more AVGAS. So I tried a mixture, 1/4 tank 100LL and 10 gal of 93 with ethanol. It ran OK but when I stopped, she would not start (just like it used to before 100LL). Right now I don't know what to do.

Pat,

On a road trip, where practical matters dictate using pump gas, do this: EVERY time you stop, open the hood. This lets engine heat out and cools the spider. When you are ready to re-start the car, start the engine before you close the hood and immediately drive away.

When I say "every time you stop", I mean that literally. Stop for fuel? Open the hood. Stop at a rest area? Open the hood. Stop for food? Open the hood.

My bride and I did this when we drove our FI '60 from CA to a regional in Steamboat Springs CO and it worked like a charm. The engine re-fired easily and ran smoothly every time.


Two other suggestions:

1. Be sure your hot starting technique is proper: Wide open throttle and crank until the engine starts.

Corollary: If the engine doesn't re-fire quickly when you do the above, it wants fuel. Take your foot off the accelerator and crank the engine.

2. Be sure your car's cooling system is in top condition such that the thermostat can control engine temperature. I recommend a 160F thermostat for injected cars.

Jim

[George J.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

Pat,
I like Jim's suggestions. I would add that one trick for starting technique is to start with a wide open throttle (before cranking at all) and if it doesn't start immediately, slowly let up on the throttle until it starts. It is like finding the sweet spot that your car likes with relation to how much fuel it is giving with how much air it wants, and both might change a little depending upon how hot it is outside, how hot the car is, etc.

George

[Joe C.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

Glad to hear you solved the problem. Sounds like a load of "bad gas", i.e. water in it.

Now, since there are a lot of interested readers here on this thread, let me throw out something that I heard the other day, at the Mystic Gas Station in Crystal River, FL. I was filling up the 69.

The station owner and I were talking cars, boats, and non ethanol fuel

He tells me that SOME stations (not his) sell non ethanol fuel that has been treated somehow to remove the ethanol. His ethanol free gas is NOT treated. His never had ethanol in it.

So, I got to thinking...

What does one use to remove the ethanol? Is this something an enthusiast can do himself?

Does anybody know?

Ya know, I have a BS degree in Chemistry from back in 1967/1968, but I never used my degree.....wasted it going to Dental School.

Chuck

You'd have to distill ("crack") it, same way the refineries do with crude oil. Different components with varying vapor pressure boil off in their turn.

[Joe C.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

Pat,

On a road trip, where practical matters dictate using pump gas, do this: EVERY time you stop, open the hood. This lets engine heat out and cools the spider. When you are ready to re-start the car, start the engine before you close the hood and immediately drive away.

When I say "every time you stop", I mean that literally. Stop for fuel? Open the hood. Stop at a rest area? Open the hood. Stop for food? Open the hood.

My bride and I did this when we drove our FI '60 from CA to a regional in Steamboat Springs CO and it worked like a charm. The engine re-fired easily and ran smoothly every time.


Two other suggestions:

1. Be sure your hot starting technique is proper: Wide open throttle and crank until the engine starts.

Corollary: If the engine doesn't re-fire quickly when you do the above, it wants fuel. Take your foot off the accelerator and crank the engine.

2. Be sure your car's cooling system is in top condition such that the thermostat can control engine temperature. I recommend a 160F thermostat for injected cars.

Jim

Are you saying that, even for a car with an unmodified engine block and original capacity radiator, that it is possible to keep the intake manifold temp at 160 degrees, in the summer, simply by changing to a 160 thermostat?

[Stuart F.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

I guess after this long of a run on this thread, I should at least put in my 2 cents worth; In my florida location, my local "non-ethanol" station is about 17 miles away in St. Cloud. They are, as are we all, close to lots of lakes and boats. Up until a few months ago, they had 92 octane, but their refinery source has cut back to 90 octane. This still works fine with me as I just had to adjust my mix of Max Lead 2000 a bit. I know when the mix is right when I get just a little fog on my rear bumpers (Ha!).

For us old carburated types, we must not follow the fullie guys starting procedures whether we have ethanol laced fuel or not. It took me awhile to train myself for hot starting in Florida, but I now have it down pat; allow the engine to crank over with your foot OFF the gas for at least 4 or 5 seconds to clear the "puddled" fuel out of the intake manifold (too rich), then apply a little "foot feed" and it should fire right up. If it's real hot, you'll probably have to still blip it for a while until it runs steady. I know in the past I used the northern method of holding the gas down a ways to start, but that justs invites flooding and then you do have to floor it to clear it out in a cloud of black smoke, right?

The clear advantage to the non-ethanol fuel for me has been the much reduced stink in the garage, and being able to start it right up days later with a simple choke set. Now if the EPA would just stay out of my life for a few more years (10 or more I hope) I'll probably die happy.

Stu Fox

[Michael H.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

The clear advantage to the non-ethanol fuel for me has been the much reduced stink in the garage, and being able to start it right up days later with a simple choke set.

Stu Fox

Stu,

Good to hear that this worked for you. I knew that most of your "stinky garage" and fuel boil issues were a direct result of the E10 fuel.

[Domenic T.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

Patrick,
I found that I had to use about a 50/50 mix but still had the problem of not getting the 100LL on a trip.

I was running a HI comp vett engine in a 280Z and modifications didn't matter so I put water injection on it.

It stopped the ping and I could run pump gas without twisting my distributer to change the timing.

I looked at my vette to see if I could add it (for trips only) without drilling holes or mods but I am finishing a frame up on it and haven't driven it for a few years.

Just another idea.

DOM

[Jim L.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

Are you saying that, even for a car with an unmodified engine block and original capacity radiator, that it is possible to keep the intake manifold temp at 160 degrees, in the summer, simply by changing to a 160 thermostat?

In general, if the radiator has enough heat rejection ability, and all else is in good condition, then, yes, the thermostat will control engine coolant temperature.*1

As a practical matter, the stock aluminum radiator is very, very good in this regard. On truly warm days, say 90 or thereabouts, it does not have enough heat rejection ability and engine temperature will climb above thermostat temperature. In this case, obviously, the radiator is the controlling element, not the thermostat. Engine temperatures won't reach dangerous levels, but they will reach temperatures that make the FI unit "uncomfortable".

Jim

*1 Best anecdotal example I can offer, my '63 vintage racer with a fender-to-fender Griffin aluminum BB radiator. At one event, the ambient temperature was 108F and, of course, I was going flat out, but the engine coolant never got any warmer than the thermostat temperature of 160F.

[Joe C.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

In general, if the radiator has enough heat rejection ability, and all else is in good condition, then, yes, the thermostat will control engine coolant temperature.*1

As a practical matter, the stock aluminum radiator is very, very good in this regard. On truly warm days, say 90 or thereabouts, it does not have enough heat rejection ability and engine temperature will climb above thermostat temperature. In this case, obviously, the radiator is the controlling element, not the thermostat. Engine temperatures won't reach dangerous levels, but they will reach temperatures that make the FI unit "uncomfortable".

Jim

*1 Best anecdotal example I can offer, my '63 vintage racer with a fender-to-fender Griffin aluminum BB radiator. At one event, the ambient temperature was 108F and, of course, I was going flat out, but the engine coolant never got any warmer than the thermostat temperature of 160F.

You are correct in the first highlighted quote, however, I disagree about the second highlighted quote. The original radiators were designed with absolutely no heat rejection capacity margin, at all. At the slightest ambient temp increase in summer beyond what is considered average, these old things begin to overtemp, and eventually, boil over. Of course, this is even in the case where all systems are "nominal" such as proper ignition timing, air/fuel ratios, all components working as designed, etc etc. I remember all to well those summer traffic jams of years gone by where numerous cars would be stranded at the side of the road with raised hoods and steam emanating from therein! Its curious, but I don't see this any more. Do you? The plain-and-simple fact is, that modern cars are designed with plenty of cooling capacity margin.

I have a bit of anecdotal evidence, as well:

My original engine block 1965 327/365 has always been in a high state of tune. It spent the first few years under my ownership in factory stock form, with brand new DeWitts, 50/50 mix, 15 pound cap, 12 initial spark advance, proper vacuum advance and carefully calibrated distributor settings, measured A/F ratio as good as can be expected from the restored Holley 2818 at about 14.2:1 at idle and cruise and around 12.8:1 at WOT, 160 thermostat, newly Oliva restored fan clutch, full fan shroud WITH AIR CONDITIONING AND BIG BLOCK BAFFLES INSTALLED (my car does not have C60), 426 water pump WITH CAST IRON IMPELLER, etc. The engine always ran well, and never overheated, but, at the slightest increase in ambient temp, and especially during stop-and-go situations, the temp would begin to climb. This was, of course, verified with a IR gun. Under the best of summer driving conditions, the manifold temp would never settle at 160 degrees, per the thermostat. Of course, in spring and fall, with ambient air in the 50's and 60's, the thermostat set temp would override the radiator's heat rejection capacity and the manifold temp would then peg at 160, per the therm set point!

Over time, I began modifying the original L76 engine, and a few years ago I filled the block's water jacket with a product known as Hard Blok. This removed the engine oil heat rejection capacity from the radiator and shifted it to the plate type oil cooler that I placed just behind the grille. The same 160 degree thermostat is still installed, but now the intake manifold temp is pegged at 160 (verified, of course with my IR gun) at all times, during all seasons, in ambient temps of 100 degrees-plus, in normal, stop-and-go, or racing conditions.

[Stuart F.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

Yes indeed Michael. Thanks for the heads up. I guess I missed out on the 92 Octane, but that's ok. I still have a couple cases of Max Lead 2000 on the shelf to use up in my life time, Ha! BTW, my mileage went up too. Probably not losing so much to evaporation. This summer should be the real test - starting today at 90 +.

Stu Fox

[Michael G.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

With any ethanol at all in the tank of either of my L84 cars, the idle cycles wildly from 400 to 1400 and starting a hot engine is difficult. When its hot outside (above 85), this becomes much worse.

I was using racing fuel to solve this, with success, but locating racing fuel on road trips is mostly impossible.

As an alternative, I have found that both my L84 cars run fine on 90 octane unleaded, as long as it doesn't have ethanol. Its not too difficult to find it near my home, (there's a station a mile away). I usually add a gallon of 110 racing fuel, to get the octane up a bit, but I'm not sure that the octane boost is necessary, especially if its not too hot out.

On trips, I have a "pure gas" ap on my iPhone that finds the nearest station selling "no ethanol" fuel. There are a lot of them, I usually don't have to go too far out of the way to get to one. Many have 92 octane, ethanol-free gas.

[Jim L.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

You are correct in the first highlighted quote, however, I disagree about the second highlighted quote.

My conclusion, Joe, is that you and I have had different experiences over the years. In over 40 years, I've never experienced overheating in any driving environment with any of my cars that have either an original Harrison aluminum radiator or a DeWitt repro radiator. On truly warm days I have observed the temperature gauge reading a little higher. That's about it.

Jim

[Joe R.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

Mike,

Thanks for the tip, I just downloaded the "Pure Gas" app!

Joe

[Joe C.]

Re: aviation fuel in 64 fuelie

My conclusion, Joe, is that you and I have had different experiences over the years. In over 40 years, I've never experienced overheating in any driving environment with any of my cars that have either an original Harrison aluminum radiator or a DeWitt repro radiator. On truly warm days I have observed the temperature gauge reading a little higher. That's about it.

Jim

Our personal experiences with our own cars have been the same, I suspect. I had/have not become one of those roadside casualties because I've always been careful, watch the gauge and take precautions. I suspect that you might be the same way. Many people do/did not, take precautions and that's how they get/got into trouble. All of that being said, it does not change the fact that old cooling systems are not over-designed as are those of the last 30 years or so. Your admission is contained in your third sentence: "On truly warm days I have observed the temperature gauge reading a little higher." I have absolutely never seen an apparent coolant temperature rise in response to ambient temperature on any car I have owned over the last thirty or so years.