Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

[Dave B.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Carl,

No, it wasn't my car.

Dave Brown

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

i have not. i see even the base clear cars with untreated jambs still getting 50% in chapter judging.

SIR you are wrong! All get the same full deduct. Not only the jams but under the bumpers. At what chapter meet were you at that didn't get the memo. I got the full deduct at the IN. chapter meet. Thy are all to use the same standard.
KEN

[Clark K.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Clark, Is that picture of your '65 from Granbury show last year? Looks like it with everone bundled up ! If that was yours it showed very well and did not it win the class? Any way hope to see you there this fall when we are moved to the parking lot ! Blue

Yes, Craig, that is my Sting Ray. It was entered in the Brazos River Corvette Club's annual show last October. Yes, it was cold that day! My wife hasn't attended a show with me since. :-)

Thanks for the kind words. My car does very well at shows, which is a real dilemma for me when I take the car to NCRS Flight Judging Meets. At the last Texas Regional, the paint took a total deduction for over-restoration.

At that show, my car was displayed in a row of absolutely beautiful Rally Red Sting Rays. It was a real photo opportunity. -Clark

[Domenic T.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

I agree with Ridge about acrylic laquer. I restored my 67 coupe in 1971 and just had to put the original acrylic on it and hunted long for GM rubber for the doors. I used a 2 part primer on my bare glass then sanded it and used a laquer primer then the acrylic. sanded and buffed it a few months later and it looked spectacular. The next year it looked really good then it looked worse each year that went by and my 4 year old GM (NOS) door moulding was all cracked also. WE used to say that acrylac paint checked or spider web, cracked awas the bottom line.
I have done 2 of my cars in acrylic and can say NO MORE not even if it were free and I was paid.
The fellow that said in an earlier post that you can't see his car because there are to many around it gets my vote.
I want a paint job that fits the beauty of a vette and if when finished this time I get a deduction for the paint being too good I will wear it as a badge. No offence to the orange peel and dull door jam guys but I just want to do it once and have it last.
There are a few (maybe 4 ) original automobile laquer colors ( not acrylic laquer) black being one of them and I've painted a metal car with it with good results.You can always buff original laquer and get it to shine till it wears off. Thats hard to find now. I might add this to those that want a true laquer on the older vetts. The EPA people don't mess with aircraft paint like they do car paint.The aircraft paint (nitrate dope) is said to be true laquer. don't ask your paint supplier because he doesn't know. I have an A&P licence and use a lot of buterate dope on fabric planes and the old timers say that it also is a laquer but a less flamable and more fuel resistant paint. AIRCRAFT SPRUCE & SPECIALTY can get it for you. Get the nitrate as they say it is a laquer.

DOM

[Henry S.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Chris,
What did you do to your areas to dull them down?
Thanks,
Shooter

[Ridge K.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

I agree with Ridge about acrylic laquer. I restored my 67 coupe in 1971 and just had to put the original acrylic on it and hunted long for GM rubber for the doors. I used a 2 part primer on my bare glass then sanded it and used a laquer primer then the acrylic. sanded and buffed it a few months later and it looked spectacular. The next year it looked really good then it looked worse each year that went by and my 4 year old GM (NOS) door moulding was all cracked also. WE used to say that acrylac paint checked or spider web, cracked awas the bottom line.
I have done 2 of my cars in acrylic and can say NO MORE not even if it were free and I was paid.
The fellow that said in an earlier post that you can't see his car because there are to many around it gets my vote.
I want a paint job that fits the beauty of a vette and if when finished this time I get a deduction for the paint being too good I will wear it as a badge. No offence to the orange peel and dull door jam guys but I just want to do it once and have it last.
There are a few (maybe 4 ) original automobile laquer colors ( not acrylic laquer) black being one of them and I've painted a metal car with it with good results.You can always buff original laquer and get it to shine till it wears off. Thats hard to find now. I might add this to those that want a true laquer on the older vetts. The EPA people don't mess with aircraft paint like they do car paint.The aircraft paint (nitrate dope) is said to be true laquer. don't ask your paint supplier because he doesn't know. I have an A&P licence and use a lot of buterate dope on fabric planes and the old timers say that it also is a laquer but a less flamable and more fuel resistant paint. AIRCRAFT SPRUCE & SPECIALTY can get it for you. Get the nitrate as they say it is a laquer.

DOM

Dom, thank you for sharing that story.
You may save someone else from heartrache...

[Mike Z.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

WOW! Great response to a sensitive topic. If I might, my opinion:

I believe what many who shared negative or non-flattering comments, perhaps have a miss-conception of what the Judging process is all about-at least from the NCRS stand point. The mission if you will, or the Standard of the NCRS Judging is: "how was the car delivered from the factory".

If one understands this point of view, the judging standard for paint, I believe, becomes much clearer. The factory just did not take the time to polish certain areas, so Judges today expect to see those areas appear as unpolished.

It is my belief, the material used in the re-paint is not the biggest issue; but rather, the application or attempt to approach the factory technique comes to the fore front, as well as authenticity to the color/shade.

When I painted my Duntov Award 66 and National Top Flight 66, I knew as a Judge, what was going to become critical in the Judging process. On my cars, I choose a single stage polyurethane, but all the areas the factory choose not to polish (and Judges expect to see unpolished), I sprayed acrylic lacquer directly over the poly (wait 24 hrs after the poly-no other prep is necessary). Once I color sanded and polished the normally polished areas, the blendline/mask lines were unnoticeable/undetectable. The factory primer is an excellent epoxy primer and should be used unless damaged. The amount of "orange peel" can be somewhat controlled with the amount of color sanding and/or buffing in the polish process.

I am very pleased with the results and apparently, so were the Judges-both cars lost very few points in the paint catagories. And, best of all the paint is holding up excellently. One of the cars actually won a "best paint" award at one our local meets with about 300 cars in attendance, mostly street rods, muscle cars and Corvettes. So, it seems others appreciate the extra effort required for "as delivered from the Factory".

The job of the Judges is opinion, but most experienced judges hold to the Standards as set by NCRS very well. And yes, although there is only one Standard, as one goes from Local Chapter, to Regional, to National events the judging seems more strict or let's face it-more anal. I believe that is because of two things: better experienced judges and perhaps a bit of leniency at lower levels to keep new members of the judging process, interested and wanting to continue with the whole hobby and preservation of our beloved Corvettes. I believe the differences of 20% or 50% or 100% deduction, as in other Standard Deduction catagories (like K-O wheels, add on options, tires, batteries, etc.), has to do with percentage of attempt to make the appearance look like what was "delivered from the factory". The Standard for paint is quite detailed and specific-I suggest anyone preparing to paint their Corvette or is up-set with the judging they received and is concerned with the judging process of NCRS, should study the paint Standard/Guidelines carefully-you may change your opinion of the deductions you received.

I have owned and shown other types of specialty cars, like a Boss 429 Mustang-they have a whole different mentality in their judging that I was uncomfortable with-the shinier, the better-must be their Standard. I personally prefer the history and "how the car was delivered from the factory"-maybe that's why I sold the Boss in less than a year.

On a final note: I believe one should restore their car to their likes and preferences, but should know and understand the ramifications should they choose to have their car judged "how it was delivered from the Factory" Standards. If that Standard is not for you, perhaps having your car judged in some sort of Concours event might be more to your liking-they tend to stretch the guidelines to way over restored, is better.

Mike Zamora
#12455

[Michael G.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

After reading all of the posts here, I'm somewhat dismayed.

My silver-blue 63 car is scheduled to be judged at the Ohio regional in two weeks. The paint is 30 year old lacquer, but is still very shiney, everywhere. This paint got the car through about every award a mid-year can get, including Duntov.

I think I'm reading that I'll get a full deduct for presenting the car in the same condition it got 1229 out of 1265 points on exterior at a National. Its probably "duller" than it was in 1980, but it'd never meet the standard I've seen described here.

I was hoping to use Ohio to start toward another Duntov at Novi, but I guess I'll have to withdraw it.

[John D.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Judged at a recent chapter meet and the owners were happy with the 50% standard deduct for bc/cc....it was the exact goal in mind with their resto. Keep in mind the jambs and hood are gutters were dulled down. One car actually had the stinger buried in the clear, you could not even feel the edge....

[Patrick H.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

After reading all of the posts here, I'm somewhat dismayed.

My silver-blue 63 car is scheduled to be judged at the Ohio regional in two weeks. The paint is 30 year old lacquer, but is still very shiney, everywhere. This paint got the car through about every award a mid-year can get, including Duntov.

I think I'm reading that I'll get a full deduct for presenting the car in the same condition it got 1229 out of 1265 points on exterior at a National. Its probably "duller" than it was in 1980, but it'd never meet the standard I've seen described here.

I was hoping to use Ohio to start toward another Duntov at Novi, but I guess I'll have to withdraw it.

You're kidding, right?

[Mike Z.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

After reading all of the posts here, I'm somewhat dismayed.

My silver-blue 63 car is scheduled to be judged at the Ohio regional in two weeks. The paint is 30 year old lacquer, but is still very shiney, everywhere. This paint got the car through about every award a mid-year can get, including Duntov.

I think I'm reading that I'll get a full deduct for presenting the car in the same condition it got 1229 out of 1265 points on exterior at a National. Its probably "duller" than it was in 1980, but it'd never meet the standard I've seen described here.

I was hoping to use Ohio to start toward another Duntov at Novi, but I guess I'll have to withdraw it.

Michael-have you been reading the same thread I have?

Your car is the epitamy of what "as delivered from the Factory" means. Your car with original paint should be looked at as the goal or learning tool to try and achieve. It is a mobile piece of history.

Yes, Yes, please take the car to the judging meets you had planned. The guys crying about point deduction are all using base coat/clear coat. In my previous thread, I tried to advise them and others how modern paint can be simulated to appear as lacquer, but yours is the real deal. Please allow those interested to see what "real" survivor paint looks like-maybe it will cool some heads the next time they get heavy point deductions for not making it like the original.

Mike Zamora
#12455

[Michael G.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Maybe I'll get a case of Aquanet.... and spray for a few days...

[Michael G.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Mike, just to clarify, my 63 car's silver blue paint is not factory original. The car is a lacquer re-paint done in 1978. Its not cracking or fading, so its not really showing its age.

In all seriousness, Patrick, while the discussion below primarily addresses base coat/clear coat, I assume old lacquer must have dull jams too, or today it'll get a deduct. Is that correct?

Thanks,

[Patrick H.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

In all seriousness, Patrick, while the discussion below primarily addresses base coat/clear coat, I assume old lacquer must have dull jams too, or today it'll get a deduct. Is that correct?

Thanks,

Just unbuffed, that's all.
My original paint 72 has jambs that are not dull by any means; they're just not buffed to a high gloss. I've never thought that "dull" was an appropriate description for the appearance.

Patrick

[Jerry G.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

That's a pretty tall order these days, but I HAVE seen it happen.

Remember, paint these day is divided into TWO like items: (1) Color, and (2) Paint. In the 'good ole days', it was a SINGLE line item and ranked right up there with the engine block.

So, to actually take a FULL deduction on paint, you have to have the car painted TOTALLY the wrong color and then go execute an obvious BC/CC application on the paint.

OR

You can have the 'right' color, but encounter that particular judge who objects to the size/composition of the metal flake in your paint and also execute a BC/CC application.

OR

Have that rather rare factory car whose trim tag reads 'PRIME' and not be able to live with your car restored without a color coat of paint on 'er.

Well, just to keep it interesting, I have a 65 FI car with 19000 miles on it. It has a real laquer paint job that was done 30 plus years ago.( age cracks in the original) I wanted to drive the car so I had a clear bra put on the nose. what kind of deduct would this cause?