Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

[Ridge K.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

1) Repainting is not preservation, it's restoration. Material used is irrelevant, it's only original once.

2) We don't vary the deductions according to the expertise level of the individual judge. There is a deduct if the judge (any judge) believes that the paint type appears not to be typical of factory production.

With all due respect, Michael......you and I will have to disagree on the preservation issue.

Replacing the protective finish on 40, to now coming up on 60 year old fiberglass, is a case of preservation in my books. After all, the cars weren't painted strictly to offer color choices for the buying public. They were carefully sealed, primed, and painted to protect the body from sun/weather/etc. I would certainly agree some cars do not need repainting to preserve. In the case of mine, driving it cross-country in bright sun, it will need all the protection I can give it. The trailered garage trophy, very likely wouldn't need this concern.
No harm no foul here......just a difference of opinion.

My comment wasn't directed to any opposition of a judge making a legitimate deduction for paint not appearing to be typical of factory production. As a matter of fact, I specifically stated that I felt some deduction is appropriate.
I only have a problem with treating the BC/CC car, that is been color matched to the original factory paint as hummanly as possible, with the same "total paint points deduction" as one would have had they painted their car Dodge plum crazy purple ...with hemi orange cobra stripes. In my books, ...that's just wrong.
I would objectively admit, I appear to be in the minority with this view.

Just a respectful difference of opinion.....
I always enjoy hearing your thoughts, Michael.
Ridge.

[Michael W.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

As I do yours Ridge.

What needs to be kept in mind is that we're dealing with judging rules as defined by the NCRS- not how we wish it were done.

[Ridge K.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Very true, indeed.

[Jim D.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

1)
2) We don't vary the deductions according to the expertise level of the individual judge. There is a deduct if the judge (any judge) believes that the paint type appears not to be typical of factory production.

Yet in this thread are examples of the same car getting different deductions from different judges.

[Dick W.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

There is a tendency at the chapter level to be very "generous" with judging. An then you have the judge that gets stuck in an area he is not familiar with and does not understand the standard guidelines for paint. It is a never ending educational process.

[Chris E.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

I only have a problem with treating the BC/CC car, that is been color matched to the original factory paint as hummanly as possible, with the same "total paint points deduction" as one would have had they painted their car Dodge plum crazy purple ...with hemi orange cobra stripes. In my books, ...that's just wrong.

I share that opinion. In two rounds of judging, I have avoided the full deduct so far. In one case I had shiney jambs, etc and in one case I did not.

Hopefully the judges in Iowa and again in Michigan next year see my car for what it is. A labor of love to preserve/restore it to the highest level of scrutiny. Two blue ribbons down, two to go (plus a yellow).

[Michael W.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

There is a tendency at the chapter level to be very "generous" with judging. An then you have the judge that gets stuck in an area he is not familiar with and does not understand the standard guidelines for paint. It is a never ending educational process.

And that's the most common root cause for inconsistency in judging results.

[Dick W.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

And that's the most common root cause for inconsistency in judging results.

AMEN Mike!

[Clark K.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

You can't blame owners who want an awesome paint job after spending all that time and money. Who wants to see dullness and orange peel after that! Because you can still get a top flight with a big paint deduct, it is worth over-restoration to some owners.

I would have never paid big money for my car if it had factory-original paint, other than color, but that's me...I want a show car. It is sometimes difficult to take a photo of my car due to all the spectators around it. Life is tough.

[Jack H.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Very true observation! At the chapter level, we 'tend' to staff with more novice judges as one of the 'duties' of a chapter is to teach.

Plus, we typically have fewer cars to work with and therefore HAVE to construct judging divisions that differ from the NCRS formal lines of distinction (C2 division vs. separate '63-64, '65, '66, and '67 division) to conserve manpower and get the job done. That challenges the judge's sphere of knowledge.

Last, at the chapter level we tend to know each other and who wants to be a 'hard arse' with his friend? But, one thing I remind during our chapter judges meeting, is we're NOT doing the owner a favor when we let this/that aspect of the car 'slide'. I've seen more than one NCRS member become ANGRY when his car got high marks at the chapter level which encouraged him to go on to a regional meet only to run into a BUZZ SAW!!!

So, the process IS one that's fraught with challenges. We all judge by the same rules (chapter, regional, national), but there IS a difference in knowledge vs. opinion on what's correct/original. Hey, that's life...there ARE human factors afoot in our system and you live with them.

One of our chapter's founding members brought his restoration product to the chapter meet and got a high/good score. Then, he took it to a Regional meet that we sponsored and his engine stamp pad was 'called' by a very senior judge and NTL for another NCRS division.

Needless to say, he was depressed and kind of angry... But, he KNEW the block was original to the car and 'untouched'. I encouraged him to simply ignore the one judging call and go on to a National Meet. With reluctance, he did.

At the National meet, the block 'flew' without a hitch. Plus, he asked three other master judges known for their knowledge in stamp pads of that specific car for their opinion. They ALL agreed the one 'bad' call at the Regional meet level was a fluke that he should have politely objected to and asked for TL/meet chairman review.

Bottom line, YES there's a subjective aspect to judging. My council is to take each/every deduction you receive as an owner NOT as Gospel, but as a point/issue for further research. Plus, only change this/that when YOU are satisfied/convinced that it needs changing...

[Chris S.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

so are people using clear coat rattle can on the door jams with laquar to dull them up??? what are the methods, i read about hair spray being used. seems risky on an exspensive paint job?

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Very true observation! At the chapter level, we 'tend' to staff with more novice judges as one of the 'duties' of a chapter is to teach.

Plus, we typically have fewer cars to work with and therefore HAVE to construct judging divisions that differ from the NCRS formal lines of distinction (C2 division vs. separate '63-64, '65, '66, and '67 division) to conserve manpower and get the job done. That challenges the judge's sphere of knowledge.

Last, at the chapter level we tend to know each other and who wants to be a 'hard arse' with his friend? But, one thing I remind during our chapter judges meeting, is we're NOT doing the owner a favor when we let this/that aspect of the car 'slide'. I've seen more than one NCRS member become ANGRY when his car got high marks at the chapter level which encouraged him to go on to a regional meet only to run into a BUZZ SAW!!!

So, the process IS one that's fraught with challenges. We all judge by the same rules (chapter, regional, national), but there IS a difference in knowledge vs. opinion on what's correct/original. Hey, that's life...there ARE human factors afoot in our system and you live with them.

One of our chapter's founding members brought his restoration product to the chapter meet and got a high/good score. Then, he took it to a Regional meet that we sponsored and his engine stamp pad was 'called' by a very senior judge and NTL for another NCRS division.

Needless to say, he was depressed and kind of angry... But, he KNEW the block was original to the car and 'untouched'. I encouraged him to simply ignore the one judging call and go on to a National Meet. With reluctance, he did.

At the National meet, the block 'flew' without a hitch. Plus, he asked three other master judges known for their knowledge in stamp pads of that specific car for their opinion. They ALL agreed the one 'bad' call at the Regional meet level was a fluke that he should have politely objected to and asked for TL/meet chairman review.

Bottom line, YES there's a subjective aspect to judging. My council is to take each/every deduction you receive as an owner NOT as Gospel, but as a point/issue for further research. Plus, only change this/that when YOU are satisfied/convinced that it needs changing...

You need to come to the Indiana Chapter meet. No old good old buddy going on there. I think 1/2 the judges are master NCRS/BG judges. I got a FULL duduct on my 67 400 air coupe for jams,drip rails & under bumper not being dull. I was told that model car clear paint works. My understanding was that the standerd is clear. SHINY JAMS ETC. 100% DUDUCTION NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS.
KEN

[Dick W.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

You need to come to the Indiana Chapter meet. No old good old buddy going on there. I think 1/2 the judges are master NCRS/BG judges. I got a FULL duduct on my 67 400 air coupe for jams,drip rails & under bumper not being dull. I was told that model car clear paint works. My understanding was that the standerd is clear. SHINY JAMS ETC. 100% DUDUCTION NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS.
KEN

At several of our chapter meets we have had 6-7 National Team Leaders and at least one level 400 judge on every team. No slack cut there

[Carl N.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Clark,

Is that picture of your '65 from Granbury show last year? Looks like it with everone bundled up ! If that was yours it showed very well and did not it win the class?

Any way hope to see you there this fall when we are moved to the parking lot !

Blue

[Henry S.]

Re: Anyone seen a full deduct for paint lately in judging?

Charlie, yes it is about my car, and yes I have taken some steps to minimize my deduct.

I've had my car through two rounds of Chapter judging and am headed to the Iowa Regionals in a little over a month.

The first time out, I got a 20% deduct, the second time out I got a 50% deduct. I'm fine with either of those outcomes, I just want to prevent the 100%.

I have dulled down the door jambs (not the doors yet, this weekend I'll do that), the hood drip rails, the wiper grilles and under the convertible top decklid.

The message I got my first time out was "nice approximation of lacquer, good orange peel, but door jambs too shiney". (20% deduct) So I dulled them down. The message I got my SECOND time out was "door jambs dull, but not dull enough". (50% deduct)

I'm pretty sure the car won't get 100%, but I wanted to see what other people had ACTUALLY experienced on their cars or cars they have witnessed / judged. I'm trying to get a feeling for what is really happening nationwide right now.

So far, it looks like cars that have shiney door jambs are getting 100% deducts and cars that don't get less than that. That's what I want, less than 100% deduct.

How's that?

Chris,
What method/material do you use to dull them?
Thanks,
Shooter