battery deductions

[Douglas L.]

Re: battery deductions

BTW Douglas, hope to meet you in Cathedral City.

Michael, looking forward to it. First time having the car(or any car for that matter) judged, should be a learning experience. I don't expect to do all that well but hoping to find out alot about the car. I've changed the things that I know to be wrong with it but I'm sure there's alot more than I'm not aware of.

Douglas
You don't tell us the brand of battery in your car.

Terry, its a NAPA. Wrong brand and wrong group. I really shouldn't have dragged my feet so long in getting a repro battery, just didn't realize the lead time to get one from restoration battery would be so long(my fault). Thought about going down and getting a maintenance-free Delco replacement one but cant stomach the idea of buying a battery only replace it again later. BTW, anyone else notice how expensive batteries have gotten?

[Bob J.]

Re: battery deductions

Do you guys think that, a group of enthusiasts just dreamed up what an assembly line battery 'probably' looked like and, that became the defacto standard? Do you think that there are not numerous data points that, over time, become the standard and are then entered in the TIM&JG? Do you think that, just because you have no knowledge of, and are not in possession of, a typical assembly line component, that NCRS should give you full credit?

When you guys whine enough to get your way, I'll sadly leave this organization to you. In the meantime, I'll continue to fight for the high standards this organization has created. It isn't perfect but, it's head and shoulders above what many of you pine for.

Mark, 100% agree with you.

[Michael J.]

Re: battery deductions

Michael, looking forward to it. First time having the car(or any car for that matter) judged, should be a learning experience. I don't expect to do all that well but hoping to find out alot about the car. I've changed the things that I know to be wrong with it but I'm sure there's alot more than I'm not aware of.


Terry, its a NAPA. Wrong brand and wrong group. I really shouldn't have dragged my feet so long in getting a repro battery, just didn't realize the lead time to get one from restoration battery would be so long(my fault). Thought about going down and getting a maintenance-free Delco replacement one but cant stomach the idea of buying a battery only replace it again later. BTW, anyone else notice how expensive batteries have gotten?

[Floyd B.]

Re: battery deductions

>> Some people just want a blue ribbon, others want to learn about their car.

I think this hits the nail on the head. In my experience there are two schools of thought that show up on the judging field:

1) Those that view restoring and judging a Corvette as a process/journey
2) Those that view restoring and judging a Corvette as a single event/destination

[Terry M.]

Re: battery deductions

Michael, looking forward to it. First time having the car(or any car for that matter) judged, should be a learning experience. I don't expect to do all that well but hoping to find out alot about the car. I've changed the things that I know to be wrong with it but I'm sure there's alot more than I'm not aware of.


Terry, its a NAPA. Wrong brand and wrong group. I really shouldn't have dragged my feet so long in getting a repro battery, just didn't realize the lead time to get one from restoration battery would be so long(my fault). Thought about going down and getting a maintenance-free Delco replacement one but cant stomach the idea of buying a battery only replace it again later. BTW, anyone else notice how expensive batteries have gotten?

Yes the NAPA will earn you a 100% deduction. Keep in mind that with your NAPA battery you will not only lose 100% of the originality points, but also lose all of the condition points. (You have to score 10% of the originality points on a line in order to get any condition points.) While expensive, the correct size/group current AC Delco, with top terminals only in your case, is a 50% originality deduction and you should get all the condition points. 1953-1996 Corvette Judging Reference Manual, 8th Edition, Page 30

Perhaps you can re-purpose the AC Delco battery in one of your other cars as a means of lightening the load. Invest in a Battery Maintainer (a whole separate subject regarding battery maintainers) and either of your batteries will last for many years.

[Tim E.]

Re: battery deductions

BatteryStandardDeductionTable.pdf

So, back to Doug's original question.....

Doug, since your NCRS number is 61+++, I'm assuming this is all a little new to you. There are 15 Standard Deduction tables that the judges use, one of them is for batteries (see attached). According to the standard deduction table for batteries, a non-Delco battery will receive a full originality deduction (25 points). Not only that, a full deduction also requires the judge to take a full condition deduction as well (15 more points).

According to the table, a "correctly sized service replacement Delco battery with the correct top or side post configuration" receives only a 50% deduction on originality and the judge will be able to assess condition.

As you can see throughout this thread, battery judging can be very controversial. Perfect, out of the box reproductions aren't available and owners spend hours trying to improve their (high $$$ reproduction) batteries to make them a little closer. Some would argue that you just can't get them close enough (when it comes to the tar on the top).

I judged 5 cars in Frisco, TX at the last Regional. Three of those cars had non-Delco batteries resulting in full deductions on both originality and condition. In one of those cases, the owner even removed the Delco branding from a Delco service replacement so we couldn't tell it was a Delco!

My suggestion would be.....if you need a battery and you can't get a reproduction in time, put in a Delco top post battery and you'll only get a 12 point deduction instead of 40.

The judges are taught what's called the "90 percent rule". If an originality deduction is 90% or greater, the judge has to deduct 100% of condition too. You can see how this applies to batteries. Another example is missing items.....if an item is missing, the judge has to take a full deduction on both originality and condition. As a judge, we always try to at least award 10% of the originality points and therefore can judge condition. All full deductions have to be discussed and initialed by the Team Leader of the event.

Hope that helps, Tim

[Ara G.]

Re: battery deductions

Along the line with Mark's comments, I fully agree. There are 2 separate items here though. One is correctness and judging, the other being the term "typical" factory production. Just because we examine one very original 67 (that's my gig) we don't rush off and rewrite the JM to conform to what that one car had regarding parts, part numbers, wire routing, etc. Perfect example is a discussion I had with a wonderful owner and a head honcho on our 67 team regarding BB dipsticks on 67's. Discussion was rounded handle or pinched handle. We judge round handles as being correct, but can we REALLY rule out pinched handled versions....especially in late cars? That's why we use the term "typical". If 98% of the original cars we observe and learn from all had gold ashtrays, we would say that the ashtrays in vettes were "typically" gold. If you show up with a silver one, you better have some info, docs, and data to sway our opinion. Horrible example but you get my drift. Our standard hasn't changed, it's always been that cars are judged as they were built in 1967 - our knowledge though has heightened.
Regarding the second item here, you MUST (in my opinion) reward the guy or gal who has real parts/items. We know original A212 air filters were embossed into the rubber. Should we give each owner full credit if he shows up with a similar looking filter, square mesh on the diagonal, overlapped, but with white lettering screened on the top? No. The guy who hunted an original one down, paid bucks for it and showed his car with it should get the full credit. White lettering ones receive appropriate deductions (albeit minor). Same goes for Non-Dot tires, original batteries, belts, etc....Just because items are hard to find doesn't justify us throwing the towel in and saying "no one is going to find a real one of those so just give him full credit"....That's not the camp I want to be in....Just my two cents.....ARA

[Steve B.]

Re: battery deductions

Ara, don't get me started on tires. If anything I believe that there should be a larger deduction for reproduction tires. Think about it, a set of five tires only merits a 3 point hit if they are the proper brand. Very generous in my opinion but that's just my 2 cents.

[Mark D.]

Re: battery deductions

I agree, Steve.
If one chooses not to spend 25G for five Firestone 775X15 Red Stripe tires, I fully support that decision but...don't complain when the guy that chose to spend the money, gets more credit.
It's not anal retentive nitpicking, in my opinion, it's simply following the guidelines set forth.
To give the guy full credit, on a repop A212CW, just because they are hard to find and expensive, only diminishes the high standard set forth.

[Dave S.]

Re: battery deductions

I agree, Steve.
If one chooses not to spend 25G for five Firestone 775X15 Red Stripe tires, I fully support that decision but...don't complain when the guy that chose to spend the money, gets more credit.
It's not anal retentive nitpicking, in my opinion, it's simply following the guidelines set forth.
To give the guy full credit, on a repop A212CW, just because they are hard to find and expensive, only diminishes the high standard set forth.

Mark,

I couldn 't agree more. Some of us want the absolute best parts if they can be found and see the car to get credit they deserve for having them. thats why there is a 94% Top Flight and a 98.5% Top Flight.

As for using the JG as the end all in judging I can only say if that's the chosen way (which thankfully it is not) my NCRS involvement would be over. Judges, team leaders and hopefully car owners understand that there is a lot more to properly judging a car than the so called "Book". Being part of JG re-write teams we learn it is very difficult to determine absolute originality and even more difficult to put it in words that are understood by all. I've been on either side many times and I think things generally work pretty well at the Regional and National levels.

[Edward J.]

Re: battery deductions

Doug, The Delco is about a hundred bucks and a repro battery is about 250/275 plus shipping, and deduction wise its not worth the cost for a repro and mine lasted about 4 years and that was keeping it on a trickle charger when not used. Delco batteries are not what they use to be but when properly cared for you'll get 5 to 6 years. I think the deduct for a resto battery is about 3 pts. not sure but the date can come into play if it differs to much on the configuration side, and 12 pts. deduct. for a current Delco.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: battery deductions

My take is that some of us old people don't play golf to be frustrated so they take there Corvettes to NCRS judging to try to get a 100% correct car which will never happen hence or love of frustration. Also the American drive to be the best & have the best is going to kill all of us old farts. People take your Corvettes to NCRS & have fun talking to people you only see once a year & don't sweat points here & there it's not a affront to your masculinity. Remember this is supposed to be fun. Hey Terry I should have kept original the R-79 battery I loaned you. I still have the warranty card.

[Michael J.]

Re: battery deductions

At my first judging school, we were taught to use the TIM&JG for the descriptions of what the parts and assemblies should look like, some pictures were also available, and now the revisions have more pictures and of course updated descriptions as new information is discovered. We were also taught that every part and assembly, whether it looked like an obvious reproduction, an obvious original assembly line part, or something else, was always approached the same way to start, with the same disciplined, consistent use of CDCIF and the condition guidelines for scoring.

An original assembly line part that is in poor condition should always get deductions for condition, and if it is not complete or where intended function was compromised (like an L-71 foam air cleaner element that was falling apart as the owner took off the housing for judging on a BowTie car we were using as flight judging practice, imagine starting that up on cold/fast idle at 2000 RPM and having it sucked into the cylinders), then originality deducts were also taken.

An original assembly line part should be no more impressive (except if a thick wallet to buy them on eBay impresses you) for judging than a reproduction that is indiscernible from original, as written in the TIM&JG. At the battery school, a 60 year old original assembly line tar top battery was impressive, but most people flunked the test on deducting for condition since it was badly cracked and the posts were warped. Another had been hogged out and another battery put in the original case, most people also were so impressed by the original case and top cell lines, they forgot to look at the posts and the obvious seams on the sides. All I am saying is that to be fair, consistent, and objective, all parts and assemblies should be judged the same way without prejudice for what looks like an old original, tires too. I have seen some that are in tatters and extensively cracked, and probably so full of leak-fix that it would explode if driven. To provide the high standards and thorough judging, judges should not be enamored by original assembly line parts and forget all their education about CDCIF and condition judging.

[Mark E.]

Re: battery deductions

"How can we make NCRS judging more consistent, more fair, and more reproduceable to maintain the car judging gold standard NCRS represents?"

Hi Mike. It was great to meet you at the Lone Star Regional. After thinking about your question, the word that came up was authentic.

I appreciate older Corvettes that are authentic.

Many of these cars are over half a century old, so if it was well cared for the battery, ignition service parts, tires, shocks, filters, bushings and other maintenance items have been replaced. In fact, I should be concerned if these items looked like they were not replaced. That would mean the car has been neglected.

So how does NCRS treat an authentic car with original body parts, interior, major components, etc., but has obviously been serviced over the years? Why should it be penalized for acknowledging it has been cared for and serviced according to the factory service schedule (e.g. replacement battery, tires and shocks) compared to a car that is trying to pretend these components are original?

Maybe NCRS should have an "authentic" class of show cars. No pretend parts like a reproduction battery pretending to be 50 years old are allowed in the "authentic" competition. Judging points would be awarded, not deducted, if there's evidence service items are replaced in accordance to the car's mileage. For example, if the car's odometer shows 60,000 miles, then we should see newer generation spark plugs and filters... I understand deductions for replaced engines, body work, a new windshield, etc. But let's acknowledge that replacing a battery is normal. Even desirable.

My god, otherwise what's next? Analyzing crankcase oil to see if it's vintage 1960?

[Terry M.]

Re: battery deductions

Maybe NCRS should have an "authentic" class of show cars. No pretend parts like a reproduction battery pretending to be 50 years old are allowed in the "authentic" competition. Judging points would be awarded, not deducted, if there's evidence service items are replaced in accordance to the car's mileage. For example, if the car's odometer shows 60,000 miles, then we should see newer generation spark plugs and filters... I understand deductions for replaced engines, body work, a new windshield, etc. But let's acknowledge that replacing a battery is normal. Even desirable.

My god, otherwise what's next? Analyzing crankcase oil to see if it's vintage 1960?

Mark

I do like this idea of yours, but I don't know about analyzing crankcase oil. I have mine analyzed from time to time, even on my daily drivers, but I am tracking wear patterns and oil dilution. I suspect that is not what you had in mind, however.

NCRS does have a class for authentic cars it is called Bowtie/Crossed Flags. In that class there is an allowance for the replacement of batteries, tires and belts, just as you suggest.