battery deductions

[Mark D.]

Re: battery deductions

67 Corvette reproduction batteries,
if the judge is knowledgeable, should receive a 50% deduction, too.

[Michael J.]

Re: battery deductions

67 Corvette reproduction batteries,
if the judge is knowledgeable, should receive a 50% deduction, too.

Interesting, so by "knowledgeable" do you mean he "knows" more than what is in writing in the TIM&JG, which is supposed to be the only source for judging, and uses that "knowledge" instead of the TIM&JG to make his ruling?

[Mark D.]

Re: battery deductions

Knowledgeable was a poor choice. Nick's guys are knowledgeable.

The book is a guide, that's all. Although it is written by knowledgeable people, it will never be a perfect document.

Gotta put on your big boy/girl pants, when you come out for NCRS judging. That's why it is held in such high regard.

[Michael J.]

Re: battery deductions

Knowledgeable was a poor choice. Nick's guys are knowledgeable.

The book is a guide, that's all. Although it is written by knowledgeable people, it will never be a perfect document.

Gotta put on your big boy/girl pants, when you come out for NCRS judging. That's why it is held in such high regard.

[Harry S.]

Re: battery deductions

True, but as I understand a judge needs permission from the Team Leader prior to using information that is not in the JG.

[Mark D.]

Re: battery deductions

On the 68/69 team, we defer to Chuck. If he wants me to change a call, I do it because I respect him and he is the boss. He rarely asks us to change a call and he trusts our judgement. It's a two way street. He's a good guy to work for.

[Michael J.]

Re: battery deductions

True, but as I understand a judge needs permission from the Team Leader prior to using information that is not in the JG.

Yes, a "knowledgeable" judge would ask, and then the Team Lead should probably be the one to explain to an owner why that happened.

[Patrick H.]

Re: battery deductions

True, but as I understand a judge needs permission from the Team Leader prior to using information that is not in the JG.

I don't believe this to be correct.

It has long been the guide that the judges are allowed to use their knowledge - which often is far more extensive than what is in the Guide - to judge a car. If they didn't, every JG would be the size of the old Encyclopedia Brittanica we used to see on the shelves of our classrooms as a kid. I know that for the JGs I am assisting in editing that there is information that doesn't end up in there, as there does have to be a practical limit to what is written down. No one is "pulling out stuff" as Michael states. Rather, judges are chosen for the knowledge they have which is above and beyond what is written down as well as their ability to transfer that to the judging process.

Have me judge a C4 and I can follow what's in the JG but that's about it. I've got the process knowledge but not the product knowledge. Have me judge a base motor 72 and you'll get a lot more accurate and thorough evaluation because I know what they're supposed to look like far more than what is written in the JG. I suspect that the 72 owner would also value my opinion much more than the C4 owner when reviewing his judging sheets.

[Harry S.]

Re: battery deductions

I don't believe this to be correct.

It has long been the guide that the judges are allowed to use their knowledge - which often is far more extensive than what is in the Guide - to judge a car. If they didn't, every JG would be the size of the old Encyclopedia Brittanica we used to see on the shelves of our classrooms as a kid. I know that for the JGs I am assisting in editing that there is information that doesn't end up in there, as there does have to be a practical limit to what is written down. No one is "pulling out stuff" as Michael states. Rather, judges are chosen for the knowledge they have which is above and beyond what is written down as well as their ability to transfer that to the judging process.

Have me judge a C4 and I can follow what's in the JG but that's about it. I've got the process knowledge but not the product knowledge. Have me judge a base motor 72 and you'll get a lot more accurate and thorough evaluation because I know what they're supposed to look like far more than what is written in the JG. I suspect that the 72 owner would also value my opinion much more than the C4 owner when reviewing his judging sheets.

Patrick, both team leaders I work for told me last year there was a change and I needed their OK to use the information. I guess this was a change made by Dave Brigham.

[Michael J.]

Re: battery deductions

I don't believe this to be correct.

It has long been the guide that the judges are allowed to use their knowledge - which often is far more extensive than what is in the Guide - to judge a car. If they didn't, every JG would be the size of the old Encyclopedia Brittanica we used to see on the shelves of our classrooms as a kid. I know that for the JGs I am assisting in editing that there is information that doesn't end up in there, as there does have to be a practical limit to what is written down. No one is "pulling out stuff" as Michael states. Rather, judges are chosen for the knowledge they have which is above and beyond what is written down as well as their ability to transfer that to the judging process.

Have me judge a C4 and I can follow what's in the JG but that's about it. I've got the process knowledge but not the product knowledge. Have me judge a base motor 72 and you'll get a lot more accurate and thorough evaluation because I know what they're supposed to look like far more than what is written in the JG. I suspect that the 72 owner would also value my opinion much more than the C4 owner when reviewing his judging sheets.

As an owner, I find it frustrating when deductions are based on items or knowledge that is not in the TIM&JG, as that is the only document we owners have to prep our cars for judging. And many times these same items, if corrected, may get different treatments by another judge at another meet. So using "knowledge" that is outside the documented TIM&JG leads to inconsistent judging, in my experience. Over the years I have seen much of this, and the battery judging example is one of those. If a judge can't point to what part of the TIM&JG description my battery doesn't conform to, but uses some vague, subjective feel or memory he has and uses that for a deduction (based on his extensive knowledge even), that should not be allowed. Using additional knowledge about an item to help an owner, without nickel and diming the car to death with deductions for things not in the TIM&JG, is totally different.

[John D.]

Re: battery deductions

I have learned more from judging with 400 point judges than could ever fit in a manual.

[Reba W.]

Re: battery deductions

Let us not forget how far apart revisions are for these manuals. Knowledge of these cars grows much faster than the publication time lags.

I am presently working on a revision team and it is amazing at the stuff we find absent in the present edition even though we have known and judged by some of it forever.

[Michael J.]

Re: battery deductions

Let us not forget how far apart revisions are for these manuals. Knowledge of these cars grows much faster than the publication time lags.

I am presently working on a revision team and it is amazing at the stuff we find absent in the present edition even though we have known and judged by some of it forever.

I understood there was now an errata sheet process we could access to see running changes?

[Patrick H.]

Re: battery deductions

As an owner, I find it frustrating when deductions are based on items or knowledge that is not in the TIM&JG, as that is the only document we owners have to prep our cars for judging. And many times these same items, if corrected, may get different treatments by another judge at another meet.

You hit upon 2 items I tell owners when they are preparing their cars for judging.

1. Know the car and the process at least as well as the judge. It is the owner's responsibility to be aware of where to expect deductions, especially standard deductions, and to know the main areas where their car falls short. If you show up and don't know the car or the process I am very willing to educate, but don't complain if there are surprises.

2. Never change your car based on one judge or one judging. Never. And if you believe the configuration to be original, leave it alone.

If you want a judge to only use the JG, you may as well download the sheets from this web site, judge it yourself at home, and give yourself a score. If you want a knowledgeable judge to thoroughly evaluate your Corvette then bring it in for NCRS judging and be prepared for thorough.

[Gary H.]

Re: battery deductions

One other thing to look at...the side post restoration batteries have 2 beads of silicone holding the entire top on to the side case. One on each side. Inside is a small optima battery

At the Kansas City National, The top popped off of my battery when touched by a judge. Same exact issue with the 69 next to me. Full deduct for battery as they didnt even closely resemble original.

Touch your battery top and make sure it is secure.