69 VIN Rivets

[Edward J.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

I used to be a lean mean fighting machine but now I am just an old fat wing ding. To many Dairy Queen stops along the way. The UH-1 and A4C and E were at NAS South Weymouth, Mass. The only time I have ever driven down a beautiful tree lined residential street and a military instillation appeared.

I did 10 years at So. Weymouth navel station with the Navy reserves at the fuel depot, refueling the aircraft, that's a close as they would let me get, Could not understand why they would not let me fly one. I refueled a few F-14's in my days there it was a lot of fun. I talked a few pilots into hit there after burners on take off, quite a site when the sun went down. The neighbors around the base complained to much over the years and that stopped.

[Brad H.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

That's cool Ed! I always wanted to land on the carrier but us Air Force types never tried that dangerous stuff. We left that to the "real aviators" of the Navy. Much bigger you know what than I had. I think it's cool how many military aviation vets we have associated with Corvettes. There is just something about Corvettes that draw aviation folks together as well. Even David Burroughs (founder of Bloomington Gold) is a military aviation enthusiast and in fact owns a restored PT-17 Stearman which he flies regularly.
Thanks for your service Ed and thanks for your post.
Brad

[Vinnie P.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

I think it's cool how many military aviation vets we have associated with Corvettes. There is just something about Corvettes that draw aviation folks together as well.
Brad

To all...look for a special article on Military Aviators & Corvettes in the upcoming Summer Edition of The Restorer for the 40th Anniversary...I'm sure members will enjoy it.

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

According to the Bizzoco book (page 11) the VIN plate and trim plate are both installed after the body and frame are mated. The blackout process is done well before this when the body has not yet reached the frame (page 9). Bizzoco also indicates that the VIN plates are stamped of black metal (page 2). So if this scenario is accepted as accurate, the rivets would not be blacked out with the birdcage. If they were originally black it would be because they were black from the supplier, which could have very easily have rubbed off over the years by the vibration of the trim panel. I have never removed a VIN plate but those who have could easily verify if the back of the plate is black then it is as Bizzoco says. If it is natural and we accept the sequence in the book, then it would have to have been painted black on the front before assembly which is very unlikely.
Jeff

[John H.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

According to the Bizzoco book (page 11) the VIN plate and trim plate are both installed after the body and frame are mated.

Jeff -

I'm not a C3 guy and don't have the Bizzocco book, but that statement is totally incorrect - it implies that both plates were affixed after Body Drop, which is impossible. The VIN tag on C3's was affixed before the body left the Paint Shop, long before the Hard Trim Line, and even further before Body Drop.

[Dick W.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

According to the Bizzoco book (page 11) the VIN plate and trim plate are both installed after the body and frame are mated. The blackout process is done well before this when the body has not yet reached the frame (page 9). Bizzoco also indicates that the VIN plates are stamped of black metal (page 2). So if this scenario is accepted as accurate, the rivets would not be blacked out with the birdcage. If they were originally black it would be because they were black from the supplier, which could have very easily have rubbed off over the years by the vibration of the trim panel. I have never removed a VIN plate but those who have could easily verify if the back of the plate is black then it is as Bizzoco says. If it is natural and we accept the sequence in the book, then it would have to have been painted black on the front before assembly which is very unlikely.
Jeff

That book is full of errors and incorrect examples based on original cars that I have seen. Same with the Dobbins book.

[Joe L.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

That book is full of errors and incorrect examples based on original cars that I have seen. Same with the Dobbins book.

Dick------


YUP. There are many inaccuracies in the Bizocco book. I think a lot of it stems from "suppositions" the author made. I always wondered how he could possibly have come up with the research sources. Still, it's worthwhile to have the book as long as one understands that it's not an "authoritative document".

[Terry M.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

That book is full of errors and incorrect examples based on original cars that I have seen. Same with the Dobbins book.

Dick------


YUP. There are many inaccuracies in the Bizocco book. I think a lot of it stems from "suppositions" the author made. I always wondered how he could possibly have come up with the research sources. Still, it's worthwhile to have the book as long as one understands that it's not an "authoritative document".

OK Guys, let's give Mr. Bizzocco a break. I can assure you that there is no Corvette book published, including our TIM&JGs that is without mistakes and omissions. That is just the nature of the beast when one gets into the details we enjoy so much.

Brad I owe you an apology. I am sorry. I could not find any information about the VIN tag in the 1968-69 TIM&JG. I didn't do an exhaustive search -- I will -- but telling you to look there for that information was not a good thing to do.

Since you mentioned you were in the Air Force and Paul mentioned afterburners -- if we ever get to the same meet be sure to look me up and I'll tell you the full story. The F106 pilots from Kincheloe AFB used to fly under the Mackinac Bridge until someone really got their shorts in a knot about it. We also used to use the ships on Lake Superior for radar targets. I believe that practice had its down side as well.

[Brad H.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

Guys,
Thanks to everyone who posted on this topic. I imagine that since the VIN tag is so seldomly removed, the rivets for the most part are considered integral to the chassis and thus the actual finish was just accepted as is. The only reason I was concerned is because I had to remove my tag for repair and didn't want to call attention to it by having the rivets being glaring errors. I sincerely appreciate all the ideas and discussions. I don't think anyone expects our JG to be perfect or all inclusive. There are just too many details to assume they would be perfect. That said, this is exactly the reason for this forum.
Terry,
I wholeheartedly accept your apology! I'm hoping maybe there is a lesson there for all of us old farts. I can only imagine that after you have heard the same questions over and over again that it is difficult to repeat the answer. Certainly part of this education process is using the published material to the extent possible and then the real experts step in. We would all be lost without this incredible knowledge base and as a group we should be eternally grateful that you and the other real experts share that knowledge. This really makes my day and renews my faith in this group! I would truly like to meet you Terry and talk Corvettes and old jets.
Thanks again to everyone who helped here,
Brad

[Terry M.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

Brad,
Thank you for being so understanding.

I am at most Regionals and the National. Just look for the Advanced Judging School and I will almost always be there. I get to some Chapter events in the Midwest also, but that is hit or miss. In spite of retiring over a decade ago I still work a couple of days a week.

One of the reasons we have overlooked including the VIN in the TIM&J(s) is because it is judged by the Team Leader. Beyond verifying that the judging forms at hand match the VIN of the car they are judging the teams will only use the VIN to assess the approximate production date of the car, and C3s have the advantage of the body build date on the Trim Tag. A cursory glance is all the VIN will get from the judging teams.

I expect there will be some discussions at the Team Leaders meeting(s) as to whether providing VIN tag information in the TIM&JG will be a greater benefit to the owner/restorer or the counterfeiter.

[Brad H.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

Terry,
Thanks for that outstanding explanation. I most certainly appreciate all you do for this group. Your depth of knowledge is quite remarkable and the amount of time you devote to it is amazing! Without the folks like you this whole thing would just not be possible. I totally understand the situation with the rivets and if it were not for having to remove the VIN tag I would have cared less. I just wanted to ease my mind about it since I couldn't find anything definitive. I hope I can buy you a drink sometime soon as I would like to thank you in person for all your help and effort!
Thanks again Terry!
Brad

[Patrick H.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

I happened to be out in my little storage shed today and looked at a 1974 birdcage I have in there. At least on this example the black paint does not show any change or any blank spot where a VIN tag would have obscured the application of paint. So, from what I can observe on this example the VIN tag was affixed after blackout. I do not think that this example ever had any post-factory blackout applied to it before I purchased it.

Patrick

[Alan S.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

Hi,
I don't think the paint on my vin tag and rivets was "rubbed off" or "flaked off".
I removed the windshield and reached for the camera and took the picture I posted.
It was a Thanksgiving morning. You don't want to know why I remember that!
Mid-January 1971 built car.
Regards,
Alan

[Brad H.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

Thanks Patrick and Alan!
I suppose at this point I'll leave the rivets natural finish. Appreciate everyone's inputs on this!
Brad

[Joe L.]

Re: 69 vin tag rivets

I expect there will be some discussions at the Team Leaders meeting(s) as to whether providing VIN tag information in the TIM&JG will be a greater benefit to the owner/restorer or the counterfeiter.

Terry------

I expect anything that's published in the JG's or anywhere else is going to come as no revelation to a counterfeiter. I'm quite sure they already know WAY more about these matters than we'll ever know.