Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

I have a 1964 64 L-76 and need to replace the cam. I have spent the last 5 years getting this car back to original as much as possible. Are the recommendations made on this thread as far as best replacement cam the same for the L-76 engine or would you recommend a different one? Thanks in advance for any recommendations.

I recommend the LT-1 cam to replace the Duntov and 30-30 for all OE mechanical lifter engines, and it's an option for the L-79. Follow the search I suggested previously in this thread for all the system engineering information and test results, which are FACTS. Of course, everyone has an opinion, but they are rarely backed up with facts.

Duke

[Scott M.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Northern Auto and Summit carry Sealed Power cams, Summit has the kit for $192.

[Norris W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Yes, the LT1 cam will produce a smoother idle. And sawing the bar out of the back window of a split window coupe will provide much better visibility. Is that restoring though????

Is a smoother idle really an issue?

How many 64-65 FI cars have you owned, and of those, how many did you have an issue with the way it idled?

I've owned quite a few 64-65 FI cars and I never had an issue with the cam or the way the engine idled. In fact, I rather liked the sound of the cam.

I found interesting also the advice to change the camshaft on an original fuelie car to alter the way the engine runs. In an organization that is concerned with whether the spare tire has the original air in it, it seems like a strange contradiction to go into a camshaft that will noticiably idle smoother and have less valve clatter due to the correct camshaft having the .030/.030 valve lash. I was also wondering if it is true that GM was recommending this change 40 years ago why they chose to use the 30/30 Duntov cam in the Z28 Camaro also.

Back to the sources, I've bought camshafts from various sources over the years including Melling, Speed Pro/Sealed Power , TRW and even over the counter at GM. Recently I bought a camshaft from Comp Cams that was supposedly a replacement for L78/L71 and close was all I got. In the case of the Melling, SP, TRW, GM, etc, all I can say is if you start measuring, there are discrepencies from the factory specs and some of them had some wider tolerances within themselves, meaning going down the camshaft measuring all the intake lobes there were differences, and same on exhaust. In the case of the Crane repops that I've used I've found 'em to be much closer, not only to factory specs, but also to individual lobes on the same camshaft.

I'm not into trying to measure duration, overlap, lobe centerline, etc, but lift at the camshaft is easy to meaure. I've seen out of the box camshafts with .008 to .010 differences there, both on lobes on the camshaft and in comparison to published specs.

Off on a tangent: Recently I bought a camshaft for a 455 olds hotrod motor going in my '67 442 that was recommended spec wise by a supposed guru on an Olds forum. When the cam came in, after installation the oiling holes in the lifter bores were about half exposed over the top of the lifters with the lifter down on the base circle. A call to the cam manufacturer said it was fine and to run it. I told 'em I wouldn't even consider it and they suggested .100 tall lifters, which apparently nobody makes anymore for Olds motors. All this was caused because the cam was apparently ground on a smaller base circle due to it's higher lift. (Olds motors must have smaller cam bearing bores) The manufacturer agreed to take it back after I ordered a hydraulic roller from them. After getting this replacement and measuring it, I found again discrepencies between lifts one cylinder to the other.

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

I found interesting also the advice to change the camshaft on an original fuelie car to alter the way the engine runs. In an organization that is concerned with whether the spare tire has the original air in it, it seems like a strange contradiction to go into a camshaft that will noticiably idle smoother and have less valve clatter due to the correct camshaft having the .030/.030 valve lash. I was also wondering if it is true that GM was recommending this change 40 years ago why they chose to use the 30/30 Duntov cam in the Z28 Camaro also.

.

THANK YOU !! My point exactly.

Oh, and you're right, GM didn't necessarily recommend the LT1 cam as a replacement because it was better. It was a cost/inventory reduction move and also for emissions. The old 30-30 cam would not have made a good replacement for the new LT1 engines, for several reasons, so the choice was easy. Discontinue the older 30-30 cam because the LT1 cam would make a somewhat similar replacement for 64-65 and Z28. Not necessarily better but it would function as a service replacement.

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

One 327/365 owner was paranoid that the LT-1 cam wouldn't idle like the 30-30 cam. When all was done he couldn't tell the difference in idle behavior, but the engine had noticeably more low end torque and definitely more top end power, which was primarily due to the head work.

There is not a huge difference between the 30-30 and LT-1 cams. In fact, the LT-1 cam uses the 30-30 lobe on the exhaust side, indexed four degrees earlier. The LT-1 inlet lobe is from the L-72/71 cam with a slightly smaller base circle, It has about 8 degrees less effective duration at .050" lifter rise above the base circle and is indexed the same as the 30-30. The net result is slightly less inlet duration and overlap, which makes a big difference in the engine's low end torque bandwidth, but has no detectable effect on idle behavior or top end power. It takes a vacuum gage to get data to determine that a 30-30 MIGHT have been replaced by the LT-1 cam, but checking idle vacuum is not part of the NCRS judging process.

As far as quality goes, I recommend Federal Mogul (Sealed Power or Speed Pro brands) cams for all OE replacments. Crane is a second choice, and I would not touch and of the "replacement" cams from any other grinder as many are not ground to the OE specs and several vendors have questionable quality.

As far as the Z-28 is concerned, Chevrolet needed to quickly develop a 5.0L option to homologate the Camaro for Trans-Am racing, and they tried to use as many off-the-shelf items as possible. The two camshaft choices were the Duntov and 30-30, and the 30-30 was probably a good choice given its much milder lobe dynamics than the Duntov, but with a 3" stroke it was gutless below 3500-4000. Research of old road test will show that in base OE trim with a 3.77 axle the Z-28 ran the quarter mile in the low fifteens and low 90 MPH range. The Z-28's and 30-30 cam's reputation is much greater than their actual performance.

The LT-1 cam was designed in the 1968-69 time frame in recognition that SHP engines needed more low end torque even in the longer stroke 350 CID configuration, but it really wasn't "new" since it used two existing lobes that were designed with mild dynamics to be compatible with base engine valve springs.

Circa 1970 the 30-30 cam was discontinued from service parts and the LT-1 cam was listed as a replacement for all prior 30-30 applications. The Duntov continued to be available from GMPD for about another 20 years.

Comparing replacing a 30-30 cam with a LT-1 cam to removing the backlight divider from the SWC is utterly ludicrous.

Duke

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

One 327/365 owner was paranoid that the LT-1 cam wouldn't idle like the 30-30 cam. When all was done he couldn't tell the difference in idle behavior, but the engine had noticeably more low end torque and definitely more top end power, which was primarily due to the head work.

There is not a huge difference between the 30-30 and LT-1 cams. Duke

Duke,

That's not the point. Last year, you said you never automatically recommend the LT1 cam unless asked for an opinion. A few months later, someone asked about a source for an ORIGINAL 30-30 cam and you immediately went into one of your usual LT1 cam recommendations. You're missing the point of all this.

RESTORING a car has little to do with making everything better than itr was originally. Making it better is easy but making it correct is the target. If an owner wants to restore his car to factory fresh/original, why do you insist that he install a different cam when there's nothing at all wrong with the correct original design? And I don't buy your story about how terrible 64-65 FI engines run with the correct cam. That just isn't true, at all.

And I definitely disagree with "the cams sound the same". They don't.

On your last statement, "there's not a huge difference between the 30-30 and LT1 cams?, then why in the world should everyone toss the original and install the LT1?

You once told us that the 30-30 cam had a duration that was too long. A few weeks later, you suggested everyone set their valves at something like .024-.030" instead of the factory recommended 30-30". Doesn't that increase the duration even more? Which is it?

I just don't understand your direction on this whole thing. And please don't answer with more numbers and the usual high tech jive that most here don't understand.

The R in NCRS stands for restore.

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

"RESTORING a car has little to do with making everything better than itr was originally. Making it better is easy but making it correct is the target.

I can't recall when I ever saw a "restored" Corvette that wasn't "improved" is some way. Most guys don't want all the flaws that these cars had when they were mass produced.

" And please don't answer with more numbers and the usual high tech jive that most here don't understand."

Unless you take some time and effort to gain some understanduing of the mechanical dynamics, fluid dynamics, and thermodynamics of what's going on inside the engine - and I have explained these issues many times that a non-engineer should be able to comprehend - then there's nothing more I can do to help you understand the issues.

"The old 30-30 cam would not have made a good replacement for the new LT1 engines, for several reasons"

How about listing a few?

Duke

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

[QUOTE=Duke Williams (22045);594290Unless you take some time and effort to gain some understanduing of the mechanical dynamics, fluid dynamics, and thermodynamics of what's going on inside the engine - and I have explained these issues many times that a non-engineer should be able to comprehend - then there's nothing more I can do to help you understand the issues.

"The old 30-30 cam would not have made a good replacement for the new LT1 engines, for several reasons"

How about listing a few?

Duke[/QUOTE]

Duke,

It's not about that, but I knew you would reply with more tech misc. You're still missing the point, completely. It has nothing to do with "mechanical dynamics, fluid dynamics or even turkey gizzard dynamics.

I don't disagree that there may be a better cam for the small block Chev engine for some applications but that's not what it's all about here. (I don't agree that it's the LT1 cam, though)

I can't make the point any less complicated for you.

You don't have to explain to me about cams. I've been around the block a few times on this subject.

I still don't understand what you get out of all this? Let the guy restore his car the way he wants to restore it.

Enough.

[Norris W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

I recommend the LT-1 cam to replace the Duntov and 30-30 for all OE mechanical lifter engines, and it's an option for the L-79. Follow the search I suggested previously in this thread for all the system engineering information and test results, which are FACTS. Of course, everyone has an opinion, but they are rarely backed up with facts.

Duke

I'm really surprised at the statement that the LT1 camshaft is an option for replacement on an L79 engine. I can't imagine anything any LESS orginal than taking an L79 Corvette, which of course is hydraulic lifters and replacing it with a solid lifter LT1 camshaft. Any engine judge would pick up on that immediately as would most car guys. My opinion is (for what little it's worth) is that if you're building original type cars you put the right camshaft in, NO EXCEPTIONS. If you're building hotrods or resto mods, then there are a lot better options with today's technology than anything GM ever offered.

[Timothy B.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Pistons and compression have been mentioned in this post so I thought I would ask if anyone has ever used the headland type pistons on a engine rebuild. This set up seems like a great way to go and also increase compression ratio/reduce blow by.

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Pistons and compression have been mentioned in this post so I thought I would ask if anyone has ever used the headland type pistons on a engine rebuild. This set up seems like a great way to go and also increase compression ratio/reduce blow by.

Timothy,If you're talking about headland pistons and and top rings, I built one of my race motors for my D/MP Camaro in about 1972 with headland rings. I don't know if there was a difference in power though. A friend built an almost identical 305" motor but with conventional top rings and he ran almost identical times at the same drag strip. My car ran a best of 11.23 on a 11.29 record. Only problem was, the 11.29 record was from the season before.

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Head land rings are primarily a emission control tactic. The space between the piston crown and first ring is quenched, which increases HC emissions. Also, high placed top rings run hotter, and they need greater end gap as is the case with KB hypereutectic pistons. Those who don't follow the KB instructions and have too narrow end gap on the top ring are rewarded with broken pistons.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

I know of one L-79 owner who restored his engine to "327 LT-1" specification. Using my recommended valve clearances there is no detectable valve clatter. The car received a Top Flight with no deductions for anything "wrong" with the internal engine configuration.

What about the McCagh Special camshaft? That one is waaaaaay different than the OE 283 hydraulic lifter camshaft - much more so than the LT-1 cam differs from the 30-30. The McCagh Special camshaft and other major internal engine modifications made signficantly more torque and power than ANY OE 283, yet it behaved in normal driving exactly as a 283/250 HP FI engine should, and it received a Duntov Award.

Using yours and Hanson's logic, mechanical lifter 327 owners should keep the original, spindly OE prone-to-break connecting rods and early BB owners should restore their engines with the early prone-to-break single spring/damper valve springs rather than the later dual valve springs, which have proven durability.

What about all the cars that have single stage enamel or base coat/clear coat paint that is "massaged" (or one could say "faked") to look like lacquer?

... you guys care to comment on this issue?

Duke

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Using yours and Hanson's logic, mechanical lifter 327 owners should keep the original, spindly OE prone-to-break connecting rods and early BB owners should restore their engines with the early prone-to-break single spring/damper valve springs rather than the later dual valve springs, which have proven durability.


?

Duke

Now, could you please tell me exactly where you see me recommending or discussing anything other than a cam in my previous posts?

You're the same guy that told us that an 8" torsional damper "balances the engine better at high RPM" a few years ago.

And you still owe me lunch for two from your offer that you will "bet a substantial amount" that a 1115163 is the correct original vacuum advance unit for all 63's.

And I wasn't part of the "you guys" that think BC/CC paint is an acceptible solution.

Can we just end this nonsense.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Head land rings are primarily a emission control tactic. The space between the piston crown and first ring is quenched, which increases HC emissions. Also, high placed top rings run hotter, and they need greater end gap as is the case with KB hypereutectic pistons. Those who don't follow the KB instructions and have too narrow end gap on the top ring are rewarded with broken pistons.

Duke

i built my racing west bend 2 stroke go kart engines with head land piston and head land ring combo which i machined the rings and pistons myself. they sealed better at 10,000 + RPMs than conventional rings. i had great time out running the dual engine karts. now days gas ported pistons do the same thing with a lot less work.