Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

i built my racing west bend 2 stroke go kart engines with head land piston and head land ring combo which i machined the rings and pistons myself. they sealed better at 10,000 + RPMs than conventional rings. i had great time out running the dual engine karts. now days gas ported pistons do the same thing with a lot less work.

Clem,

Did Sealed Power make head land rings for 2-strokes?

The big story in the early 70's on head land rings, at least for performance, was that they were supposed to reduce friction because the ring required less static pressure. Gas pressure added the needed pressure behind the ring under power. We learned they didn't work as well under vacuum though, during intake stroke.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Pistons and compression have been mentioned in this post so I thought I would ask if anyone has ever used the headland type pistons on a engine rebuild. This set up seems like a great way to go and also increase compression ratio/reduce blow by.

with the excess outward pressure on the rings that gives a better seal it also wears the rings and cylinder walls faster. blow by does not seem to hurt the HP as i saw a dyno chart were the HP was very close to the same with std top ring gap and the same engine with .125 top ring end gap. this engine blew oil out of the reathers but max HP was close to the same.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Clem,

Did Sealed Power make head land rings for 2-strokes?

The big story in the early 70's on head land rings, at least for performance, was that they were supposed to reduce friction because the ring required less static pressure. Gas pressure added the needed pressure behind the ring under power. We learned they didn't work as well under vacuum though, during intake stroke.

i never saw any being sold for 2 strokes as i machined the rings myself from conventional .125 wide cast iron rings. on the 2 stroke they allowed more precision port timing and once they hit the top of the exhaust port the pressure went away and it reduced the friction as you posted so the engine revved freer. i still have the stuff around here someplace.

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

i never saw any being sold for 2 strokes as i machined the rings myself from conventional .125 wide cast iron rings. on the 2 stroke they allowed more precision port timing and once they hit the top of the exhaust port the pressure went away and it reduced the friction as you posted so the engine revved freer. i still have the stuff around here someplace.

Clem,

With the thin ring in a 2 cycle, did you have to raise the port a bit to match the position of the ring?

I always liked the concept of headland rings but I still don't know if there was any advantage, at least from what I saw in the one I built.
We built quite a few race engines with dykes rings and a few odd combinations but in the end, I think a standard ring package worked as well.

I think a deck plate hone with an automatic feed precision hone and a normal ring package is hard to beat in most V8 racing engines.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Clem,

With the thin ring in a 2 cycle, did you have to raise the port a bit to match the position of the ring?

I always liked the concept of headland rings but I still don't know if there was any advantage, at least from what I saw in the one I built.
We built quite a few race engines with dykes rings and a few odd combinations but in the end, I think a standard ring package worked as well.

I think a deck plate hone with an automatic feed precision hone and a normal ring package is hard to beat in most V8 racing engines.

in theory the top of the piston does the port timing but there always is clearance between the piston and the cylinder wall where with a head land set up the seal in more precise. does it make a difference i don't know as we did not dyno those kart engine but i won a lot more races than i lost. if you wanted to try a different port timing and did not want to risk screwing up a cylinder you could use a conventional piston ring setup and notch the piston top at the ports to change the port timing. i think most race engines use horizontal gas ported pistons with thin rings these days.

[Norris W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

I know of one L-79 owner who restored his engine to "327 LT-1" specification. Using my recommended valve clearances there is no detectable valve clatter. The car received a Top Flight with no deductions for anything "wrong" with the internal engine configuration.

What about the McCagh Special camshaft? That one is waaaaaay different than the OE 283 hydraulic lifter camshaft - much more so than the LT-1 cam differs from the 30-30. The McCagh Special camshaft and other major internal engine modifications made signficantly more torque and power than ANY OE 283, yet it behaved in normal driving exactly as a 283/250 HP FI engine should, and it received a Duntov Award.

Using yours and Hanson's logic, mechanical lifter 327 owners should keep the original, spindly OE prone-to-break connecting rods and early BB owners should restore their engines with the early prone-to-break single spring/damper valve springs rather than the later dual valve springs, which have proven durability.

What about all the cars that have single stage enamel or base coat/clear coat paint that is "massaged" (or one could say "faked") to look like lacquer?

... you guys care to comment on this issue?

Duke

Damn, I just typed a long comment, answered phone, got a coke, came back and typed some more, hit post and POOF, it disappeared.

Anyway, you've got several problems with me tonight.
1. I'm bored and wide eyed
2. Wife went upstairs a half hour ago and is snoozin' in front of TV with 2 of our 3 inside dogs in my spot on the bed, so I've got NO spot and nobody to talk to
3. Since we ain't displayin' our full names on the interned I'm not so inhibited about yakin' about specfics of my ole' cars.

First, I can't imagine anybody takin' an L79 and putting an LT1 camshaft in it, but if they did, they changed what the motor is or wuz' and there would be a deduction if the judge had detected it. I ain't a judge and don't wanna' be one, but there are specifics somewhere on changing horsepower and significant deducts for it. If I remember right going from an L79 to a 365 or a 365 to a fuelie has a heavy price. The car in question went from being an L79 to a something else.

I don't know about the "McCagh Special" but if it is way different, and "the internal engine modifications made significantly more torque and power" then my opinion, for what little it's worth is that the car shouldn't have Duntov'd.

So where do you draw the line? If internal engine mods to make significantly more power are okay on a Duntov car, why not do some head work, bigger valves, multi angle valve job, bump compression? You could bore it .125, add stroke and really let it hang out there? You could even extrude hone the intake and exhaust manifolds. The issue becomes are we building stock appearing race cars or are we restoring back to original configuration and function? Like somebody said, the R in NCRS is restore NOT restomod.

Back to the my old junk and lack of inhibited now category, Of the Corvettes 7 are smallblocks and the ones that are complete or close include a 270 horse, 300 horse, L79, and 2 fuelies (not presently running) They ALL have those pesky spindly OE prone-to-break connecting rods. The only rods I ever broke was in an L79 that I'd changed to 12.5:1 pistons and a BIG roller with tunnel ram when I was in college. Rest of the Corvettes are big block and all have whatever camshaft, lifters & springs were correct and I've never had a spring failure. The same is true with 2 LS6 Chevelles and an LS7 (old 454 one) crate motor in a Camaro and a 427 Biscayne (accurate clone). No aftermarket rods and no trick springs anywhere.

The paint is a somewhat different issue. First there is nothing presently available that is a good replacement for the laquer used back then. The currently available laquer is crap with no lead and the wrong metallic pigment in metallic colors. This new junk is 5 years or 5 days in the sun, whichever comes first, and it's gettin' dull. With paint there are 3 options, original paint cars, cars painted with 35 year old NOS paint found somewhere still sealed, or cars painted with the wrong crap. In the case of the latter, I'd rather have the wrong stuff that'll hold up than the wrong stuff that won't.

[Brooks R.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Thanks Scott, I will see if I can find a location in my area.

[John D.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Brooks, I feel for you friend. Call me if you need anything as I see this post got way off what you asked about. Very funny though but not want you wanted to hear.
That's what makes this a great club.
Next time ask about oil please.

[George J.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

For what it's worth, I am someone who has the same engine as you and when I had mine rebuilt, I used the 118R cam from Federal Mogul, used the stock rods with ARP bolts, and stock pistons. The engine runs fine, with plenty of power, and I run it up to 6300 frequently. The only think robbing it is the factory sidepipes. I did use Duke and John's method for setting the valves, and it does run better that way, even with the tighter 0.024" settings. The recommendations I would make are to run the 30/30 cam, set the idle at 1100, or whatever it likes, and the valves the way Duke advises. Also make sure you don't have any vacuum leaks and run good spark plug wires. If you have a problem, check the spark system first, then the fuel system.
Duke, not to be combative, but have you ever seen anyone throw a rod using better bolts, and revving it to no more than 6500rpms? I would be interested in an actual occurrence.

[Joe C.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Working on my 65 FI and cannot find the "Speed Pro" cam, all my searches come back with "Sealed Power" as the manufacturer.

Appreciate any help in pointing me to a Dealer in the Northern California area.

Walnut Creek or Concord CA would be great.

Thanks

Brooks,

This has been an ongoing dispute for years, now, on this forum. Since you seem to be a newcomer, a search of the archives will reveal quite a lot of interesting reading.

Since you are fortunate enough to have an original L76 engine in your Corvette, I can attest to the fact that you'll be very happy with the 346 (30-30) cam. The idle has tons of cruise night appeal and can be identified as very different than the milder LT1 cam cadence by anyone who knows their smallblock Chevy engines. You also have the right to say that your engine has "the most high-strung camshaft that Chevrolet EVER installed in a stock smallblock V8 engine".

If you want to "cheat" the cam into making more torque on the low end, then lash it at .030/.030, and NOT at the original GM spec of .025/.025, or the .023/.023 which is "recommended" by one of the professors who posts here. You can also lower the SCR slightly and advance the cam an additional 2 degrees (to a total of 6). A careful build will reveal that this cam has significant bleed-off and can actually tolerate a more aggressive advance curve than the stock engine was delivered with.

If you would like any details on how to make a 30-30 equipped SBC perform, then get me offline.

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

"You're the same guy that told us that an 8" torsional damper "balances the engine better at high RPM" a few years ago."

You have me confused with someone else. I never said any such thing. The torsional damper has nothing to do with engine balance. It is there to damp crankshaft torsional modes.

"And you still owe me lunch for two from your offer that you will "bet a substantial amount" that a 1115163 is the correct original vacuum advance unit for all 63's."

Your memory has completely failed. I never said any such thing. Being the original owner of a SWC, I know that all '63 engines were originally equipped with the 201 VAC. I have stated many times that this is not a good match for the 340 HP engine because it doesn't meet the Two-Inch Rule, and my engine had idle stability problems until I replaced it with a 236 VAC. The 163 has been listed as the service replacement for the 201, but I have always referred to it as a "boat anchor" because it may take up to 18" to pull it to the limit, which is too much for even a base engine.




Duke

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

"You're the same guy that told us that an 8" torsional damper "balances the engine better at high RPM" a few years ago."

You have me confused with someone else. I never said any such thing. The torsional damper has nothing to do with engine balance. It is there to damp crankshaft torsional modes.

"And you still owe me lunch for two from your offer that you will "bet a substantial amount" that a 1115163 is the correct original vacuum advance unit for all 63's."

Your memory has completely failed. I never said any such thing. Being the original owner of a SWC, I know that all '63 engines were originally equipped with the 201 VAC. I have stated many times that this is not a good match for the 340 HP engine because it doesn't meet the Two-Inch Rule, and my engine had idle stability problems until I replaced it with a 236 VAC. The 163 has been listed as the service replacement for the 201, but I have always referred to it as a "boat anchor" because it may take up to 18" to pull it to the limit, which is too much for even a base engine.




Duke

No, I don't have you confused with someone else. Here you are telling me and the rest of the world that a 163 IS the correct original vacuum advance for all 63's. Included is your wager of "a fair amount".

I'll dig out your rant on the balancer.

"No, you don't remember correctly. I'm not convinced that "201" is the "correct" vacuum can. The parts manual lists 1116163, and there would be no reason to change the service number. On what basis do you claim a 201 can is "correct" for '63 engines being as how the parts catalog calls out a 163 which is also called out for all 59-62 Corvette engines that had vacuum advance? Yes I have a '63 L-76. I'm the original owner.
Did you read my previous post? The 163 can is the service replacement, and I believe the originally installed vacuum can on all '63 engines, even though it was not properly engineered for SHP/FI engines; '63 was the first year that vacuum advance was used on mechanical lifter cam engines and Chevrolet didn't get it right!
They corrected this in '64 with the 236 can for SHP/FI, and I recommend this can be retrofited to '63 SHP/FI if you want better idle quality and no overheating. The 163 can continued on 250/300 HP engines.
I don't know the specs of the 201 cam, but I would wager a fair sum that it is NOT "correct" for '63 engines".

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Duke, not to be combative, but have you ever seen anyone throw a rod using better bolts, and revving it to no more than 6500rpms? I would be interested in an actual occurrence.

Broken rods were fairly common back in the sixties. It happened to a friend who drag raced a '60 with a 327, but he was revving higher than 6500.

When I disassembled my engine at 115K miles the no. 7 rod had a very bad crack around a bolt seat that was revealed during Magnaflux inspection. This rod was clearly on the way to failure. I was lucky I caught it in time.

Higher quality bolts, polishing the rods and then shotpeening them will improve durability, but the bolt seat area is still the weak point, and nowadays this work will cost more than the $250 for a set of Eagle SIR rods.

I think it was Mike Ernst who reported a few years ago breaking a rod in his '57 283/283 FI engine, and I believe it was an OE 283 rod that is even more spindly than the early 327 rod.

IMO it is foolish to spend money on these rods, when for 250 bucks you can buy a new set of rods that are significantly more durable and end up with a virtually bulletproof bottom end and long as you don't oil starve it.

I'm somewhat "okay" with the second design 327 rods as long as they pass Magnaflux and won't see more than 6000 revs. The additional material adjacent to the bolt seat is a substantial improvement, and the change was made because Chevrolet realized that the first design was weak and prone to failure in this area.

Duke

[Timothy B.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Clem,

With the thin ring in a 2 cycle, did you have to raise the port a bit to match the position of the ring?

I always liked the concept of headland rings but I still don't know if there was any advantage, at least from what I saw in the one I built.
We built quite a few race engines with dykes rings and a few odd combinations but in the end, I think a standard ring package worked as well.

I think a deck plate hone with an automatic feed precision hone and a normal ring package is hard to beat in most V8 racing engines.

Mike,

From my reading the sealed power headland pistons/rings seal on intake (high vacuum) because of the expander behind the ring which is different than the Dykes ring. The top ring is chrome with a stock gap and because of the lack of hot unburned trapped on the side of the piston article say's the engine actually runs cooler w/less blow by. I always wanted to ask about this set up for opinions..

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Mike,From my reading the sealed power headland pistons/rings seal on intake (high vacuum) because of the expander behind the ring which is different than the Dykes ring. The top ring is chrome with a stock gap and because of the lack of hot unburned trapped on the side of the piston article say's the engine actually runs cooler w/less blow by. I always wanted to ask about this set up for opinions..

Timothy,It's very possible that the newer style headland rings use an expander but the headland rings in the early 70's did not. I don't keep up with current engine tech. The theory was that it allowed gas pressure to apply pressure to the back side of the ring. It worked under pressure but not with vacuum. I would think an expander would defeat the purpose of the low tension design but I suppose it's low pressure expander.I think I'll go to the Sealed Power site and read about the latest headland rings. I may be too old to learn/retain anything though.