Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

[George J.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Duke,
thank you. My reason for asking the question as I did, is that there are a lot of us out there that have original, or rebuilt engines with the original rods. I had mine rebuilt using good bolts, not having the advise of replacing the rods. I feel confident in taking it to 6300 or 6400 knowing that you only have one story and it's about someone revving to over 6500 in a racing application. My impression is that when people broke rods, they were the earlier type, and were over revved.

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Like I said, I had one rod that may well have broken the next time I went to the redline. I never intensionally overreved my engine, but did unintentionally a couple of times with missed shifts.

Higher quality bolts don't address the basic weakness of the rod in the bolt seat area.

If you have a rebuilt engine with the early 327 rods, I don't necessarily recommend replacing them, but one should definitely not rev the engine past 6500, and maybe even hold revs to 6000 or so.

If one is contemplating rebuilding a mechanical lifter engine with the early rods, they should definitely buy a set of Eagle SIR rods and use the old ones for paper weights.

Though the second design rods are more durable, I still think it's a good idea to replace them - at least on 350 HP engines. I know of one set of second design 327 rods that ended up in a 283, which is a good place for them as the 283 rods are even weaker than the early 327 rods, but 283s place less stress on the rods at the same revs due to the slightly lighter pistons and shorter stroke.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

No, I don't have you confused with someone else. Here you are telling me and the rest of the world that a 163 IS the correct original vacuum advance for all 63's. Included is your wager of "a fair amount".

I'll dig out your rant on the balancer.

"No, you don't remember correctly. I'm not convinced that "201" is the "correct" vacuum can. The parts manual lists 1116163, and there would be no reason to change the service number. On what basis do you claim a 201 can is "correct" for '63 engines being as how the parts catalog calls out a 163 which is also called out for all 59-62 Corvette engines that had vacuum advance? Yes I have a '63 L-76. I'm the original owner.
Did you read my previous post? The 163 can is the service replacement, and I believe the originally installed vacuum can on all '63 engines, even though it was not properly engineered for SHP/FI engines; '63 was the first year that vacuum advance was used on mechanical lifter cam engines and Chevrolet didn't get it right!
They corrected this in '64 with the 236 can for SHP/FI, and I recommend this can be retrofited to '63 SHP/FI if you want better idle quality and no overheating. The 163 can continued on 250/300 HP engines.
I don't know the specs of the 201 cam, but I would wager a fair sum that it is NOT "correct" for '63 engines".

How about giving us the link where you found this and any other mistakes I might have made? I'm glad to see than someone is keeping such close track of what I have said here in the last 12 years.

Duke

[Michael H.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

How about giving us the link where you found this and any other mistakes I might have made? I'm glad to see than someone is keeping such close track of what I have said here in the last 12 years.

Duke

Duke,

I can't seem to find the discussion now because I can't find the discussion board archives on this new fangled contraption but here's most of the discussion. It's titled "distributor issues from NCRS west reg", posted on Monday, 17 May 2004. You look it up if you think I made all that up. I'm tired of having to prove everything here.
You'll notice that I politely replied to your comments while you got into your usual know it all attitude.

Now, can we move on before this entire thread is locked? If you have more nonsense, email me directly.

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg. Duke Williams <Send E-Mail> -- Monday, 17 May 2004, at 9:01 p.m. I'm not convinced that "201" is the "correct" vacuum can. The parts manual lists 1116163, and there would be no reason to change the service number. The OE vacuum advance spec for all '63 engines is 0@8", 16@15", and this was a common vacuum can for fifties and sixties engines. See a problem here? The '63 SHP/FI engines only pull about 12" at 900, so the vacuum can is not "locked" at full advacne. It will "dither" varying the advance, which leads to idle instablility. The fix is to install the 1116236 vacuum can used on SHP/FI engines beginning in '64. I made this modification to my '63 L-76 in the late sixties and the idle quality and stability improved dramatically. Duke

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg. Michael Hanson <Send E-Mail> -- Monday, 17 May 2004, at 9:12 p.m. Actually, the 201 IS the correct vac advance unit for all 63 Corvettes. It was replaced in late 64 with the 163, if I remember correctly. I agree that if the incorrect vac unit was installed, that might give the point plate a new starting position but with the correct original in place, I'm not sure what the problem is. There are a few possibilities but none that are likely. I'm still thinking about the problem on Timothy's 63 but I know I've seen a lot of this exact problem on F.I. cars. Duke, I thought you had a 63? Your supposed to know about that "201" vac unit. Michael

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg. Duke Williams <Send E-Mail> -- Monday, 17 May 2004, at 9:49 p.m. No, you don't remember correctly, and the vacuum can will not change the orientation of the breaker plate. They all have the same "rest" position with zero applied vacuum, so regardless of the installed can, the initial timing will not change. Yes I have a '63 L-76. I'm the original owner. Did you read my previous post? The 163 can is the service replacement, and I believe the originally installed vacuum can on all '63 engines, even though it was not properly engineered for SHP/FI engines; '63 was the first year that vacuum advance was used on mechanical lifter cam engines and Chevrolet didn't get it right! They corrected this in '64 with the 236 can for SHP/FI, and I recommend this can be retrofited to '63 SHP/FI if you want better idle quality and no overheating. The 163 can continued on 250/300 HP engines. I don't know the specs of the 201 cam, but I would wager a fair sum that it is NOT "correct" for '63 engines. There are at least a half dozen errors in the current '63 JG, beginning with the plug in the clutch cross shaft. All '63s had a zerk fitting from St. Louis. Then there is the JG coil untilization... I submitted a letter with backup documentation nearly two years ago. Never heard anything more about it. Duke

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg. Michael Hanson <Send E-Mail> -- Monday, 17 May 2004, at 10:14 p.m. Ok, I thought you said "I'm not convinced the 201 is the correct vacuum can" but I probably read it wrong. The 201 is the correct original equipment vac adv unit but you're correct, it has little to do with it's effect on base timing but it also has nothing to do with the initial position of the distributor, other than a possible degree or two because of assy tolerances. The original problem being discussed was the fact that some distributors seem to be in the correct clock position when installed with the gear in a non correct mode and the vac adv unit has nothing to do with that. I don't know the answer to the original problem but I do know it has nothing to do with the vac adv unit. I've had an original 201 on my 63 FI car for the last 20 years that I've owned it and never had an unstable idle or surge problem. Maybe just lucky I guess. I agree, the manual needs a little work but it'll get there. It most of all needs accurate information submitted and it will get this.

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg. Duke Williams <Send E-Mail> -- Monday, 17 May 2004, at 11:05 p.m. On what basis do you claim a 201 can is "correct" for '63 engines being as how the parts catalog calls out a 163 which is also called out for all 59-62 Corvette engines that had vacuum advance? The '63 vacuum can specs (all engines) is 0@8", 15@15.5", and I believe you will also find this as the specified vacuum advance in the ST-12 manual. What is the spec for the 201 can - or, if you have a Mightly Vac or equivalent, what is the start and end point for your installed 201 can. The 201 can is not listed for any Corvette engines in the P&A catalog. If you don't have idle stability problems it might be because the 201 can yields full vacuum advance at less than idle vacuum. This will keep the vacuum can plunger locked at full advance at idle. With the OE '63 vacuum can that does not pull the plunger to the stop at idle it will absolutely, positively guarantee you that the SHP/FI engines will not idle stably. My L-76 idle stability was a constant problem until I installed (circa 1966) the 1964 SHP/FI 236 can that locked in full advance at 8". Once it was installed my idle problems disappeared. The 1963 SHP/FI vacuum can - same as the base 250/300 HP engines is one of the few true "engineering errors" on these cars. It was corrected for 1964 SHP/FI engines, but Chevrolet left 1963 owners to deal with it on their own. Duke

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg. Michael Hanson <Send E-Mail> -- Monday, 17 May 2004, at 11:30 p.m. If you were looking in an original 1963 printing of the parts book, you would see the 1116201 listed for all 63 Corvettes and several pass cars and some trucks with 283 and 327 engines. My May printing does indeed show the 201 and at that time, there is no such thing as a 1116163 at all. The first 1116163 was spec for the 65 model year and the 1116201 was replaced by the 1116163 in Jan of 1965. At that time, all the new 1965 parts books showed the 163 as the correct unt for 63.I don't have the 201 specs here but I should dig them out just to compare the two and see if there is a substantial difference. If you have the numbers for the 163, I'll send the numbers for the 201 so you can compare. The 63 and early 64 7017375 F.I. vacuum advance system, as I'm sure you know, is not the same as the system for the 64-65 7017380 F.I. because the vacuum source was different. That would partially explain the change in the part number and specs for the vac adv unit for the 64-65. The new 346 cam specs would have changed it also. I have to assume the new Holley carburetor for 64 worked off the same new vacuum source as the FI unit. As I'm sure you know, the new 236 operated on a totally different system but I don't remember if it was more sensitive or less sensitive. I'll dig out the specs on the 201 and send them to you. Michael

[Jim L.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

This thread would be a lot more enjoyable to follow if you fellows would take your squabble outside.

[Brooks R.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Thanks John,

I really appreciate the open and unabashed dialog. It is good to hear all sides, especially as a novice.

I have lots of questions about all aspects of my car so there is a good possibility I might start a few more spirited discussions.

[Michael F.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Brook, Just go as per our phone conversations. The CS-118R cam is available under Sealed Power/Federal Mogul. Forget the words Speed Pro.
Be careful you don't get CS-113R although that is my favorite for 57 to 63.
As far as where to order this cam that shouldn't be too difficult. When you go on various forums I am sure you will get a list of the favorite cams various individual like. I respect that info whether I agree or not. Remember a milder cam is better than wilder. Go wild and the FI unit will hate it.

Try Car Quest and NAPA for a start. They do have to special order it. John

I think Rock Auto had the best pricing.


Funny.I ordered a CS-118R (30-30) for my '63. Rock auto sent me a cs-113R (097 DUNTOV)
instead (easy mistake).

I didn't notice the mistake for about 8 months until I was ready to install. I installed the cs-113 (097) anyhow. It is the "correct" cam for that year. I am happy I did. I love the 097! Loads of torque revs 6500+ rpm idles great with a/c. Yes I would have gotten more top end HP with my pocket ported and port matched heads running the 30-30 (much more lift). I am running a M-20 with a 2.54 1st and a 3.36 rear. But this combo is perfect for me.

With stiffer rear end gearing, I think the 30-30 would be a better choice in my application.

[Brooks R.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Thanks for the tip Michael. I am somewhat dated in my knowledge so is pocket porting cleaning and polishing the entire path from the valve to the manifold opening, and I assume matching means all the ports were made to the same dimensions.

Approximately what is the cost and percent increase in HP?

Thanks

[Michael F.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Thanks for the tip Michael. I am somewhat dated in my knowledge so is pocket porting cleaning and polishing the entire path from the valve to the manifold opening, and I assume matching means all the ports were made to the same dimensions.

Approximately what is the cost and percent increase in HP?

Thanks

The matching is pretty much what it sounds like. My machine shop charged $250 for pockets. I can't attest to the performance gains. I did multiple changes at the time.

But it's a well known improvement. Not too radical just helps breathing and efficiency. I am sure there are many opinions that I will leave to the other members.

The pockets are the low end of the intake runner right before and at the valves. I had that area ported by local performance machine shop. Then I cleaned up the intake runner (taking off minimal material) with a rough burr.

Then I matched the intake ports to the heads. I also matched up the cast iron exhaust manifolds to the exhaust ports. You would be surprised how poor the factory manifolds lined up to the exhaust ports.

[Joe R.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Brooks,

If I remember correctly, porting your heads will gain you about 20 percent more horsepower. I'm all for it. Let's get up on it!

Joe

[Duke W.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

It's more like 8-10 percent (and about 3 percent more peak torque), but it also extends the useable power bandwidth by 500-1000 revs, so the average power increase through the gears is typically greater than the increase in peak power. All in all it's the best way to get "more power" without loosing low end torque and messing up the OE idle behavior with a bigger than OE cam.

OE 1.94/1.50" valve heads flow about 200/140 CFM at 28" H2O test depression. A good pocket port and multiangle valve job gets it up to around 220/170; 2.02/1.6" valve heads flow a little better, but the difference is not enough to justify increasing the valve size with the attendent loss of durability.

There is more info about "head massaging" in the "Tale of Two Camshafts" article from the fall 2009 Corvette Restorer.

Duke

[Joe C.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Very close to 260/210 with 2.02"/1.60" 461/462 heads fully and carefully ported and with a 3 angle valve job. This will support close to 440 net corrected flywheel horsepower with the proper intake, carburetor and exhaust system.
Don't believe all of the numbers thrown around by some of the "professors" who post here.
These numbers were empirically confirmed.
Now there's a good word for all you non-technical types.
If you don't know what it means, then look it up.

[Brooks R.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Thanks Duke, I just ordered the DVD with past articles for 65s.

[Brooks R.]

Re: Where to order Federal Mogul 30/30 Cam - Speed Pro CS-118R Cam or KC-118R Kit

Thanks Joe, I appreciate all the information I can get.