Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

[George J.]

Re: I brag about my gas mileage

What's that got to do with the smoke and mirrors of corn based ethanol?

Michael,
Research is not always immediately conclusive. I think all of the complaining about what is going on with ethanol, etc, is missing the point. We are at the forefront of this change and mistakes are going to be made. I am encouraged that we are doing all of this experimenting, etc. since I am not a fan of our utter dependance on oil.
I also think the Volt will be revolutionary when looked back on, twenty years from now.

George
31887

[Jack H.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Bear in mind that a relatively large portion of the nuclear waste disposal issue is 'self-inflicted'. We've defined what constitutes hazardous waste and a pretty good percentage of our bulk is this/that wipe used to mop a minor spill, suits/clothing, Etc. These items are NOT spent fuel rods and other nations (e.g. France) differentiate 'waste' components more logically than we do.

For such items there are other/better alternatives than locking them away forever + a day. But, we don't use common sense + science which compounds our waste bulk.

Then, we do 'stupid' things, based on 'not in my backyard' thinking. The lion's share of our truly 'hot' waste items are barred from re-processing here at home. The Canadians LOVE the business we send them! These are solid, high paying, high tech jobs we export intentionally when we DO have the technology here...

Last, we did wrestle down the decision on where to put our underground, last resort, containment facility (Nevada). But, it's NOT open to receive waste due to litigation maneuvers. So, politics interfere with business & science once again...

[Paul J.]

Re: I brag about my gas mileage

Michael,
Research is not always immediately conclusive. I think all of the complaining about what is going on with ethanol, etc, is missing the point. We are at the forefront of this change and mistakes are going to be made. I am encouraged that we are doing all of this experimenting, etc. since I am not a fan of our utter dependance on oil.
I also think the Volt will be revolutionary when looked back on, twenty years from now.

George
31887

Part of my second real job involved researching alternative energy and fuel options. That was 1982. While the "experimenting" (which has primarily been paid for and subsidized by the governent) has been ongoing, there has been progress in solar technology in reducing the panel costs and in the practicality of using fuel cells. But in reality, there has not been any significant progress in making any of the alternatives more feasable in our everyday lives. You simply can't ignore chemistry and physics.

The Volt is a tremendous car, as is the Tesla, but these cars are too expensive for a market that cannot afford it. While in twenty years they may be looked back upon as revolutionary, they are destined to failure at this point in time. In twenty years they will be used in the same sentence as the Tucker.

Paul

[Michael W.]

Re: I brag about my gas mileage

Michael,
Research is not always immediately conclusive. I think all of the complaining about what is going on with ethanol, etc, is missing the point. We are at the forefront of this change and mistakes are going to be made. I am encouraged that we are doing all of this experimenting, etc. since I am not a fan of our utter dependance on oil.
I also think the Volt will be revolutionary when looked back on, twenty years from now.

George
31887

I think you and Tom Olson missed my point. The 'scientific research' behind corn based ethanol has been done and without a shadow of a doubt it highlights the foolishness of the whole program. While it's obvious that the oil reserves will not last forever and alternatives must be developed, corn ethanol is not the way to go.

[George J.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Paul,
I totally disagree about the Volt. I agree that they are expensive, but if they market them correctly I believe they will sell. If I was in the market for a car I would buy one tomorrow. I think that they need to sell them with two markets in mind. One is the environmentally minded east or west coast consumer, and the other is the person that wants something maintenance free. I think that the maintenance aspect is being highly under rated. I personally want a car with an electric motor as my daily driver, or work vehicle so that I don't have to worry about it. Electric motors are just so much more reliable.

George
31887

[George J.]

Re: I brag about my gas mileage

I think you and Tom Olson missed my point. The 'scientific research' behind corn based ethanol has been done and without a shadow of a doubt it highlights the foolishness of the whole program. While it's obvious that the oil reserves will not last forever and alternatives must be developed, corn ethanol is not the way to go.

But Mike, could it be that they are/were projecting that ethanol will be/would be economically feasible due to economies of scale, etc. I admit that I have not researched it fully, but I know that there is a lot of conflicting information out there.


George
31887

[Michael W.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

George,

I think if you a little cost analysis, you'll find that the operating cost while on electric power can exceed that of using gasoline for those areas that pay a high KW rate. Add in the amortized cost of the original and replacement battery packs, not to mention the 240VAC charging equipment and possible domestic wiring upgrades and the car becomes hard to justify.

[George J.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

George,

I think if you a little cost analysis, you'll find that the operating cost while on electric power can exceed that of using gasoline for those areas that pay a high KW rate. Add in the amortized cost of the original and replacement battery packs, not to mention the 240VAC charging equipment and possible domestic wiring upgrades and the car becomes hard to justify.

Mike,
I am not sure that strict cost will be the deciding factor for younger buyers. Look at how they took to leasing. Talk about expensive, but people will pay for convenience. I still think they will sell well and be a harbinger of where the industry is going. I'll bet if you asked a 15yr old which they would rather have and explain all of the maintenance issues with a gasoline car as opposed to changing batteries they would look at you and ask why anyone would want a gasoline powered car. I predict a sea change and if it doesn't happen, I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

George
31887

George
31887

[Paul J.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Mike,
I am not sure that strict cost will be the deciding factor for younger buyers. Look at how they took to leasing. Talk about expensive, but people will pay for convenience. I still think they will sell well and be a harbinger of where the industry is going. I'll bet if you asked a 15yr old which they would rather have and explain all of the maintenance issues with a gasoline car as opposed to changing batteries they would look at you and ask why anyone would want a gasoline powered car. I predict a sea change and if it doesn't happen, I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

George
31887

People got into leasing because they saw that they could drive a better car than they could afford. They were soley looking at thier monthly budget, and figured they'd be driving something different in a few years anyway. For the past several years Harley dealers have marketed to these people, with bikes and options paid for in monthly instalments. It makes no economic sense, but people are people. I think that you're right that there's a limited market out there. After all, Toyota has been selling Prius' for several years, and there are several others. My observations are that the market is mostly older people who intend to trade the car in before the battery pack needs replacing, so they could care less about that cost. These cars are also considerably more affordable than the Volt.

I hope you're not wrong, but I think you will be...there we disagree.

Paul

P.S. The company that I have worked with on thier electric conversions installs an operating and software package that will isolate failing/failed cells in the battery pack and display it on the central screen. This allows you to open the pack and only replace the failed cell, greatly minimizing the cost. Unfortunately, they haven't sold enough cars to test this system on older battery packs over time.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

leasing killed the used corvette market because GM quit leasing corvettes and the people with leases had cars they could not afford to buy when the lease was up so they dumped them for what they could get.