Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

[Jerry G.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Bingo, we have lift off! It IS the economics ($/BTU).

Brazil got away with it due to their 'special' situation: virtually no oil reserves, LOTS of untilled land, population essentially 'clumped' in a handful of large costal cities (simplifies distribution channel from farm to refinery) AND prior government mandates for economic/defense reasons.

We're not in the same boat. We share some similarities (untilled land availability), but our refining centers are appreciably spread from the farm. Without a dedicated pipeline system (MAJOR capital investment), the basic source cost + transporation in costs are against ethanol being competitive with fossil fuel that enjoys a mature distribution system.

The tree hugger's solution is to tax conventional petrol to inflate its cost at the pump to even the playing field. That's an anti-economic approach...

I'd be happy if they'd just remove the tax subsidies for ethanol and let the market sort it out. The farm lobby would go crazy but hey they bitch about taxes and government so .....

[Clem Z.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

seems to me natural gas powered vehicles are a better deal than ethanol,fuel cell and electrics because with the marcellus shale deal it looks like we will have lots of natural gas. also we do have a method of transporting it around the states

[Michael W.]

Re: I brag about my gas mileage

I will trust Scientific Research every time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tom 73 and an 06

What's that got to do with the smoke and mirrors of corn based ethanol?

[Richard T.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Clem: I looked at the Honda Civic natural gas powered car at the recent Palo Alto Concours. Pretty neat car and it is rated a California green clean car. The draw backs are: A refill device for the garage is about $2,000 and the range per tank full is about 270 miles. The 270 miles is not bad but the refill takes about 8 hours with the home unit. The local PG&E yard has a rapid refill station though. The Honda rep explained that the Honda is built to burn natural gas unlike some low cost conversions. The all electric cars are neat but the cost to recharge them in California at home is costly. The residential rate at the third tear price range is $.29 per KWH. The posted savings for the Volt and the Leaf is $.11 per KWH which is base line rates. Maybe if the buyer had solar panels on the roof it would offset the cost. I know this has nothing to do with are older Corvettes.

[Paul J.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Clem: I looked at the Honda Civic natural gas powered car at the recent Palo Alto Concours. Pretty neat car and it is rated a California green clean car. The draw backs are: A refill device for the garage is about $2,000 and the range per tank full is about 270 miles. The 270 miles is not bad but the refill takes about 8 hours with the home unit. The local PG&E yard has a rapid refill station though. The Honda rep explained that the Honda is built to burn natural gas unlike some low cost conversions. The all electric cars are neat but the cost to recharge them in California at home is costly. The residential rate at the third tear price range is $.29 per KWH. The posted savings for the Volt and the Leaf is $.11 per KWH which is base line rates. Maybe if the buyer had solar panels on the roof it would offset the cost. I know this has nothing to do with are older Corvettes.

We had two natural gas conversions several years ago that you could sign out of moter fleet for trips. There were only three stations in the State that you could fill it at, so you had to plan your trip carefully. Everyone was scared of running out of fuel and would'nt use them. What a tremendous waste of money.

As for electrics, I've worked extensively with three companies designing cars and doing conversions. Great idea but our power mix is 60% coal. I wonder what the poorly informed tree huggers would say about the "coal powered" cars. Solar's another great idea but it's a joke for any large demand. While there have been some advances in bringing down the cost of solar panels, they're still highly inefficient. Don't quote me on this, but I recall being told that they are somewhere between 8 and 11% efficient, but this varies for different configurations. You're going to need more panels than you can fit on one roof. However, if you had an electric Corvette, it would be one fast m*****. The Vette in the video below could use some help (you may have seen this video, it's been around for a while).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/26/worlds-fastest-electric-c_n_179582.html

P.S. The torque discussion is for real. My electric conversion buddies had a big problem finding CV joints and axles that would'nt shred under full acceleration.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Clem: I looked at the Honda Civic natural gas powered car at the recent Palo Alto Concours. Pretty neat car and it is rated a California green clean car. The draw backs are: A refill device for the garage is about $2,000 and the range per tank full is about 270 miles. The 270 miles is not bad but the refill takes about 8 hours with the home unit. The local PG&E yard has a rapid refill station though. The Honda rep explained that the Honda is built to burn natural gas unlike some low cost conversions. The all electric cars are neat but the cost to recharge them in California at home is costly. The residential rate at the third tear price range is $.29 per KWH. The posted savings for the Volt and the Leaf is $.11 per KWH which is base line rates. Maybe if the buyer had solar panels on the roof it would offset the cost. I know this has nothing to do with are older Corvettes.

those hondas were lease cars and i understand they took them back along with the compressor several years ago. i bet the states and the feds are worried about collecting road tax on any car not using gasoline or diesel. we have the mineral rights to several gas wells and we do not use the 300,000 free cu ft of gas we are entitled to by the contract so if we had a natural gas powered car maybe we could use it.

[Doug F.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Another bad policy is the mandate for the military to use x% of biofuels by 2016. A recent article in the Marine Corps Times talked about a Navy test of algae biofules. Last year they bought 20,000 gals of algae biofuel at $424 per gallon. That is over $8 million for fuel when they could have bought petroleum fuel for less than 1% of that cost. The comment from on of the Marine Corp folks was that it cost money to be a leader and you are going to be able to buy it at $4/gal. It mentioned that they ordered another 150,000 gal. When the gov't should be tightening budgets, we have this kind of fat in the operating budgets. I'm not totally opposed to alternative fuel sources, but if the cost is 100 times the cost of regular fuel, then maybe they need to go back to the drawing board before we buy tens of thousands of gallons of a prototype product.

[Ciro A.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Everything you need to know about Al Gore can be summed up by this one story. During the early stages of his presidential campaign he hired a 32 year old girl who wrote a few books similar to "Sex in the City" Anyway, she became his fashion consultant as well as an advisor giving him pointers on how to be more hip and "Manly" She recommended he wear more of a certain color suits to seem more important and less stodgy. That was when there were reports about him trying to be "the Alpha Male"
So let me get this straight, the man who aspires to be the leader of the free world, and my Commander-in -Chief is getting advise on how to be a Man from some 32 year old bimbo!!!!! ???????????pathetic

[Duke W.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

those hondas were lease cars and i understand they took them back along with the compressor several years ago. i bet the states and the feds are worried about collecting road tax on any car not using gasoline or diesel. we have the mineral rights to several gas wells and we do not use the 300,000 free cu ft of gas we are entitled to by the contract so if we had a natural gas powered car maybe we could use it.

No, I know a couple of guys who own CNG Civics.

Methane is a very good motor fuel. RON is about 110, and I think those CNG Civics are about 12:1 CR.

Range is still an issue; about 200+ miles is a practical limit in normal driving.

Honda's Clarity, their fuel cell car, is only available on a lease, about $600/month - just like the GM EV-1 from a decade ago.

I looked at a Volt at the LA auto show this week. I think it's an excellent architecture, but it's complicated, thus expensive, and FWIW, I thought the interior looked cheap.

The Volt is laid out like a diesel electric locomotive - an IC engine drives a generator with electric transmission to the wheels, but with a battery. There are some yard locomotives that have batteries since they start and stop a lot and can use regenerative braking to recover energy and store it in the batteries.

The Volt's architecture probably represents the future, but it is complicated and expensive because you are essentially adding an onboard genset to what is effectively an electric car, but it solves the electric car range problem

Duke

[Wayne W.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

We had two natural gas conversions several years ago that you could sign out of moter fleet for trips. There were only three stations in the State that you could fill it at, so you had to plan your trip carefully. Everyone was scared of running out of fuel and would'nt use them. What a tremendous waste of money.

As for electrics, I've worked extensively with three companies designing cars and doing conversions. Great idea but our power mix is 60% coal. I wonder what the poorly informed tree huggers would say about the "coal powered" cars. Solar's another great idea but it's a joke for any large demand. While there have been some advances in bringing down the cost of solar panels, they're still highly inefficient. Don't quote me on this, but I recall being told that they are somewhere between 8 and 11% efficient, but this varies for different configurations. You're going to need more panels than you can fit on one roof. However, if you had an electric Corvette, it would be one fast m*****. The Vette in the video below could use some help (you may have seen this video, it's been around for a while).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/26/worlds-fastest-electric-c_n_179582.html

P.S. The torque discussion is for real. My electric conversion buddies had a big problem finding CV joints and axles that would'nt shred under full acceleration.

The problem I have with some of these so call environmentalist, is that they don't tell the whole story. "Just plug it in and go, No Pollution" BS.
They don't tell you about the coal fired power plant, or the nuclear plant that supplied the power. They have serious pollution issues. They don't ever tell you about the sacrifice of the persons that just might be in the way of the construction of those plants, the transmission lines etc. Or have their land taken, their area affected by the political realities of living close to one. Just plug and go. BS.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

The problem I have with some of these so call environmentalist, is that they don't tell the whole story. "Just plug it in and go, No Pollution" BS.
They don't tell you about the coal fired power plant, or the nuclear plant that supplied the power. They have serious pollution issues. They don't ever tell you about the sacrifice of the persons that just might be in the way of the construction of those plants, the transmission lines etc. Or have their land taken, their area affected by the political realities of living close to one. Just plug and go. BS.

everything that generates power has to take a crap somewhere,there is no free lunch.

[Doug F.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

Well said Clem!

[Jerry G.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

The problem I have with some of these so call environmentalist, is that they don't tell the whole story. "Just plug it in and go, No Pollution" BS.
They don't tell you about the coal fired power plant, or the nuclear plant that supplied the power. They have serious pollution issues. They don't ever tell you about the sacrifice of the persons that just might be in the way of the construction of those plants, the transmission lines etc. Or have their land taken, their area affected by the political realities of living close to one. Just plug and go. BS.

The idea is that is easier to treat a point source of emisions, the distribution infrastructer is in place and the charging can take place off peak.That said the is no such thing as clean coal it's dirty and has serious disposal problems. There is no demonstrated technology to make coal clean..but it is ours and we don't need to send troops in to secure the supplies.
Best solution is photo voltaic on individual homes with battery storage to charge the car over night then you can charge up your new Chevy Volt and tell the middle east to suck it. Just be careful..the chinease are outbuilding us in photo voltaics, time to quit arguing and internally fighting and get to work.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

The idea is that is easier to treat a point source of emisions, the distribution infrastructer is in place and the charging can take place off peak.That said the is no such thing as clean coal it's dirty and has serious disposal problems. There is no demonstrated technology to make coal clean..but it is ours and we don't need to send troops in to secure the supplies.
Best solution is photo voltaic on individual homes with battery storage to charge the car over night then you can charge up your new Chevy Volt and tell the middle east to suck it. Just be careful..the chinease are outbuilding us in photo voltaics, time to quit arguing and internally fighting and get to work.

the problem is we let them nationalize the oil industry over there after we developed it. BIG mistake. we should have kept it and paid them a % of the profits. also how did we end up being on the side of the only country in the middle east that has no oil ??? jerry the industry that builds photo voltaic cell also use a lot of dangerous chemical that must be disposed of.

[Wayne W.]

Re: Gore actually admits that corn-based fuel ethanol "is not good policy"

The idea is that is easier to treat a point source of emisions, the distribution infrastructer is in place and the charging can take place off peak.That said the is no such thing as clean coal it's dirty and has serious disposal problems. There is no demonstrated technology to make coal clean..but it is ours and we don't need to send troops in to secure the supplies.
Best solution is photo voltaic on individual homes with battery storage to charge the car over night then you can charge up your new Chevy Volt and tell the middle east to suck it. Just be careful..the chinease are outbuilding us in photo voltaics, time to quit arguing and internally fighting and get to work.

Yep, that is the idea, but they are still arguing about where to store all of those nuclear wastes generated here in the power plant four miles from me, and after 30 years, are still storing them on site. That point source, along with some others, just happens to be in my back yard. BTW, we were here first. Y'all enjoy your electric cars.