Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

[Terry M.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

I would imagine that volume would have had an impact as much as anything. Typical practice for over the counter sales parts would be to send a batch from the oem line to the packaging dept for single-box packaging. When the production application was ended, the whole process would have been performed on a low-volume setup, which may or may not have duplicated exactly the original tooling, especially if the oem process was a highly integrated mechanized operation. My experience was with the wiring stuff, but that is the method we used, as long as the current production parts carried the correct part number, they were shuttled off to a service packaging operation. Once high volume production ended all bets were off and a low volume setup was used.

The volume of assembly line AC212CW and PF25s were huge back then. The Corvette assembly line would have been a small blip, I think.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Mike you had to go there.

Now I need something a lot stronger than aspirin.

To answer your question - no, that 746 pcv valve when it was initially produced in 1967 was a solid construction, like the 691 and 736 valves. I don't have the picture with me, but I sure saved those details.

I have only seen one of those and it surprised me as the one I saw was later than data I had for the transition from solid machines valves to stamped assemblies took place.


Terry, I think I actually asked someone about these exact air/oil parts for Camaro about a month ago. Give me a couple of days to go back through my notes. The oil stuff is/was behind the quest for the golden fleece (filter) I know I have those #'s with me.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Terry,

Manufacturing runs off part numbers, and at at first level it would be hard to separate Corvette from Camaro.

Where we get all mixed up is "the only date" is on the box and we have different filters in them with the same 'selling part number' on the outside of the box all in the same time period.

That goes against the manufacturing plan, if the part numbers were identical. Given that I have not seen that specific print, I cannot say the part number Averill Ave produced for the Schwartz Creek Air Cleaner asy plant was the same as what they produced and put in boxes.

[William C.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

That is correct, and if multiple lines were in service at AC, minor deviations could have existed at the OEM level during the typical model run.

[Ridge K.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Mike,
For years we have been trying to pin down OEM oil and air filters based on what was available over the counter. We have examined date codes on boxes and the details of their contents ad nausium. All along we ignored the possibility that assembly installed air and oil filters were different than was was available in SERVICE. My contention is the assembly line installed oil and air filters (and perhaps some other items like PCV valves) were different than SERVICE items so that the warrantee enforcers could determine if the vehicle was properly maintained. In short, to be blunt, my contention is we have been barking up the wrong tree for decades.

Most regular TDB readers know that I'm a man of limited Corvette knowledge, and I would never argue with a former 70-72 team leader, much less a national Corvette hall of fame inductee, ....but I don't buy the "different" oil filter theory that has been offered as a possibility.
I was working as a shop flunkie in 1971 at a very busy dealership. Nowadays, shop flunkies are called "technicians", as opposed to ....factory trained mechanics.
Shop flunkies do oil changes as well as other minor maintenance work. I've personally handled the first oil change on countless 1969 to 1972 Chevrolets, including Corvettes and a couple of 1969 Z/28s. I also worked side by side experienced mechanics diagnosing engine warranty issues, and relating finding to manufacturer representatives for payment approvals. I've never seen one of those black and white filters until today, and a few years back on a Camaro site.

I have never seen a "different" oil filter used as any sort of "benchmark" for was maintenance properly done. never heard it discussed, including in heated discussions over customer's cars.

Maybe it happened, but I think it would be very unlikely that I never heard this issue mentioned (over years) in any discussion or diagnosis.

Dealerships and their respective owners wanted as much service work coming thru the door as possible in those days. The same as today. Many folks aren't aware of the fact that that is the largest generator of profit for a franchise dealer, ...not simple the sale of automobiles. The sale of automobiles, ensures a steady, un-ending stream of service customers.

When disputes erupt over warranty work, the manufacturer's representatives settled the issue. Rarely in person, but over the telephone in those days in well over 90% of cases.
We have a few franchise dealership owners, or former owners within the NCRS membership. It would be great to hear the thoughts of one of them.

Just my humble opinion, Ridge.

[Terry M.]

[Don G.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Dave-Ron-Terry
Your picture of a black PF-25 with a silver label was factory installed on Corvette engines from 1984 through 1991. For years, Chevrolet wanted AC to provide a black filter to match other engine accessories such as air cleaners,etc. AC finally agreed starting with the new C4 Corvette but retained the blue color for the replacement market. The PF-25 was never available in black in the replacement market except for a few that apparently showed up at dealerships in a fleet pack. Normally, the fleet pack filters were blue with a multicolored label. One explanation could be that AC had extra inventory of the OEM design when they received the fleet pack order and, with or without approval, shipped the black ones possibly to avoid a line changeover. I have never seen documentation that the color preference for black was intended to deny warranty claims for lack of maintenance.

A small black & white photo of the black PF-25 is in an article I wrote that was published in the CORVETTE RESTORER volume 33, number 2 fall, 2006, page 18-19. ( However, two issues carried this designation so you have to find the one that has maroon 67 L88 on the cover)

[Joe L.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Dave, you scared everyone off with that filter (the black one with white label), tell us more about it???

Ronald------


This is an assembly line oil filter. It was supplied as part of a new vehicle. This was done from about the mid 80's to about the mid 90's. I do not think it's done anymore.

It has been speculated that the reason for this oil filter coloring/labeling was to allow dealership or GM personnel to ascertain if an oil filter had ever been changed if a warranty claim was made involving internal engine failure. It's possible that was the reason. However, one must also consider that GM engines since the early 80's have all been painted black. So, it might also be that the black oil filters were used so that "everything matched".

[Joe L.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Dave-Ron-Terry
Your picture of a black PF-25 with a silver label was factory installed on Corvette engines from 1984 through 1991. For years, Chevrolet wanted AC to provide a black filter to match other engine accessories such as air cleaners,etc. AC finally agreed starting with the new C4 Corvette but retained the blue color for the replacement market. The PF-25 was never available in black in the replacement market except for a few that apparently showed up at dealerships in a fleet pack. Normally, the fleet pack filters were blue with a multicolored label. One explanation could be that AC had extra inventory of the OEM design when they received the fleet pack order and, with or without approval, shipped the black ones possibly to avoid a line changeover. I have never seen documentation that the color preference for black was intended to deny warranty claims for lack of maintenance.

A small black & white photo of the black PF-25 is in an article I wrote that was published in the CORVETTE RESTORER volume 33, number 2 fall, 2006, page 18-19. ( However, two issues carried this designation so you have to find the one that has maroon 67 L88 on the cover)

Don-----


It was also done after 1991. The original PF-51 oil filter on my 1992 LT1 was black with a silver label. I think the same was true for 1993. I don't know, for sure, if it continued after 1993, though.

[Terry M.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Ronald------


This is an assembly line oil filter. It was supplied as part of a new vehicle. This was done from about the mid 80's to about the mid 90's. I do not think it's done anymore.

It has been speculated that the reason for this oil filter coloring/labeling was to allow dealership or GM personnel to ascertain if an oil filter had ever been changed if a warranty claim was made involving internal engine failure. It's possible that was the reason. However, one must also consider that GM engines since the early 80's have all been painted black. So, it might also be that the black oil filters were used so that "everything matched".

My 2008 with LS7 and my daughters 2006 Malibu Maxx both had oil filters which differed (in their paper label, NOT the body color) from the SERVICE parts -- and I was comparing them to fleet pack service filters. I could find no difference in the LS7 air filter from the SERVICE unit, except the dot matrix date code. There are other parts I examined from the 2008, but they are not germane to this discussion.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

At least one down - the black oil filter. Now back onto the oil and air filters.

Ridge - just what color and configuration of oil filters were you taking off in 1970?

[Ridge K.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

At least one down - the black oil filter. Now back onto the oil and air filters.

Ridge - just what color and configuration of oil filters were you taking off in 1970?

Ron, please keep in mind I was a 17 year old kid working weekdays for two hours after school, and all day on Saturdays (initially).

I spun the filters off, and threw them in a empty 55 gallon oil drum that was taken to a local landfill monthly. I can remember them looking like the typical AC examples shown above (white canister, red and blue paint trim). I do remember seeing the embossing on the bottom, yet could not tell you the exact phrase embossed.

40 years ago this year I started working at the now gone dealership. In these past 40 years, I've sadly lost quite a few brain cells. Probably a combination of drinking too many cold brews, ......and punching the pedal on those bigblocks (no regrets in either case).

Ridge

[Ronald L.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Ridge, gives us an idea, and another land fill to excavate...

[Ridge K.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Ridge, gives us an idea, and another land fill to excavate...

That's a good one, Ron. Ironically, I did drive the company truck out to the long-closed landfill a couple of times in the early 1970s to dump dealership trash. My memory was they only recycled rebuildable cores in those days. I do remember old antifreeze being poured in plastic containers and dumped.

Around 15 years ago or so, that landfill was completely filled in with dirt, and leveled. It's in a bad part of town however, and never been developed...

[Ronald L.]

Re: Identifying Correct PF 29 and A212CW

Ridge,
Maybe you'll find one of these Oklahoma specials in there too...and we thought air filter prices were on the loose!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160562178447