Originality

[Gene M.]

Re: Originality

Jim,
Excellent explanation. I agree that the VIN numbers are one and only one set of parts that are original unique to the one single car. All the other non VIN number identified parts are subject to what ever for restoration.

But the issue arises when a car with created VIN numbers gets the same top flight award and no deductions same as a car with it's original VIN numbers intact. As a hobby it may not matter to some members but in the realm of life it hurts the world of CORVETTE. Creates a world of doubt when ever one is looking at a high option or high horse Corvette for sale. I know buyer be ware. But is not NCRS contributing to this explosion as was asked in this original post? I do not have any suggestions to make it all better nor do I want to criticize NCRS as a organization.

[Michael W.]

Re: Originality

Gene,

I wish to respectfully disagree. NCRS judging rules and terminology is well laid out for all to see. The phrase 'numbers matching ' is carefully and wisely avoided for many good reasons, so discussion of future values, matching numbers all mixed with judging awards is apples oranges and tomatoes.

Confusion inevitably arises when buyers and sellers don't understand the signifigance and meaning of flight awards and start using the words 'certified' and 'authentic'.

If you're talking about a judge getting fooled by someone presenting a phony car, how is that the fault of NCRS?

You know all this stuff anyway.

[Gary W.]

Re: Originality

Back to Karl's original post, I just hope there are going to be buyers around for our old girls in 20yrs.....I can't remember the last time I saw a potential buyer at a meet without grey hair?..If there are, I doubt many would know how to tell the difference between an ORIGINAL vs RESTORATION drivetrain anyhow, even now let alone in another 20yrs. Without provenance (proven documentation & owner history) it's all a moot point anyhow......at least to the "investment-savvy" buyer, of which there aren't many.
I'm also on-board with Gene's sentiments......................but I guess that's why we have Bowtie vs Flight judging.
All this said, I didn't buy my '67 L71 as an "investment" but simply to enjoy the raw grunt & beauty of a real car with attitude and also enjoy the restoration hobby ) Having just atained chapter Top Flight 97.3% after 4yrs of twidling, I intend to drive the heck out of her - and HARD ) Nothing on earth like all 6 barells on full-song - I call them my '6 Horsemen of the Apocolypse' ) Those scary x-plys are coming off this weekend and look out!! ). And yes, she is ORIGINAL with PROVENANCE.
Great chatting with you guys,
Gary from Down Under.

[Joel F.]

Re: Originality

Those of you who think original engines are going to be valued in 20 years should take a look around you at the next judging meet you attend. I do not see many people under 45-50 at these meets, and certainly less who participate as judges. Who is going to be able to provide the required depth of knowledge in 20 years? Will the next generation even want to own a 50, 60 or 70 year old car?

The most knowledgeable people in the hobby are in their later 50's, 60's and 70's now. They cut their teeth with Corvettes when they were practically new cars and maintained, modified, raced, and restored them over that time. In that sense we are in a unique situation right now to have a group of enthusiasts who have owned and been around many of these cars for 30 or 40 years and have forgotten more about originality than many owners will ever know. The combined knowledge of these people is extrodinary, but in 20 years these people will probably not be active in the hobby.

[Roy B.]

Re: Originality

I'm 70 and have owned Corvettes starting in my 30's. I've seen many changes over the years concerning originality from a bolt marking to the engine pad look. NCRS is a great place to learn and show a Corvette but it's a game of keeping up with the JM ,They help members to bring their Corvette back to life or judge what they have done.There not responsible for their judgment of what they think is original. If you wont proof take your Corvette to as many meets as you can and you'll get many different opinions on what is original.
If your thing is getting awards then play the game , if you wont awards to increase the Corvette resale value that's OK, I don't judge anyone that does what ever makes them feel good. I really don't see that many C1's at NCRS any more because many owners of these cars are older like me that just enjoy driving them now, I like many others drive their original Corvette because of all this argument over brooch marks and the like.
Example: One year this is correct next year it's not , one judge will say correct then an other will say no.
The most enjoyable class to enter for me and many others that now drive their Corvettes is the Sportsman class and watch others argue .

[Steve B.]

Re: Originality

Those of you who think original engines are going to be valued in 20 years should take a look around you at the next judging meet you attend. I do not see many people under 45-50 at these meets, and certainly less who participate as judges. Who is going to be able to provide the required depth of knowledge in 20 years? Will the next generation even want to own a 50, 60 or 70 year old car?

The most knowledgeable people in the hobby are in their later 50's, 60's and 70's now. They cut their teeth with Corvettes when they were practically new cars and maintained, modified, raced, and restored them over that time. In that sense we are in a unique situation right now to have a group of enthusiasts who have owned and been around many of these cars for 30 or 40 years and have forgotten more about originality than many owners will ever know. The combined knowledge of these people is extrodinary, but in 20 years these people will probably not be active in the hobby.

Joel, you make some valid points however in my case. I am 45 and while I would never claim to know everything I have been around these cars since my teens. I have lots of friends in their 30s/40s who are surprisingly knowledeable and will become more active when time allows. I wish that I had the flexibility to attend shows but being in business plus wanting to spend time with my family comes first for me. I am hoping that I will have lots of time to attend shows and even hopefully judge when I retire. My 8yr old loves BB corvettes so theres another Corvette guy in the making.

[Karl K.]

Re: Originality

One other question,
If a Big Block car were being judged for Top Flight or another
major Corvette award, engine numbers matched but there was a part or something about the car that suggested the car did not start life as a big block how would that affect the outcome?

[Joel F.]

Re: Originality

One other question,
If a Big Block car were being judged for Top Flight or another
major Corvette award, engine numbers matched but there was a part or something about the car that suggested the car did not start life as a big block how would that affect the outcome?

Karl, it depends on how definitive the proof were and how good the judges were. If it were something like an AO Smith body on a '67, it should be a total deduct for all BB equipment. Other things would be at the judge/team lead's discretion.

[Michael W.]

Re: Originality

One other question,
If a Big Block car were being judged for Top Flight or another
major Corvette award, engine numbers matched but there was a part or something about the car that suggested the car did not start life as a big block how would that affect the outcome?

Karl,

There's a huge difference between 'matching' and 'typical' and 'original'. Best read up on the rules to understand how difficult it would be to answer your question adequately.

[Bill M.]

Re: Originality

Bought my first corvette 1976 flares hooker side pipes 6 tail lights keystone classics and a sunroof. now 20 cars later i have a few matching numbers cars but i feel a line has to be drawn. Tires, batteries exhaust?? all this stuff wears out and does not exist any more. we pulled the body off of our 66 to do some chassis repairs and my youngest son is screaming that we should put a 502 in it he is the voice of the future. I would like to see an adjustment to the massive cost of what we do to CREATE an original car.

[Paul J.]

Re: Originality

Karl;

Joel and Gary hit the nail on the head. It's supply and demand. Right now there are a lot of us that grew up with these cars and care a lot about them. Most of us now have the means to afford them, and the prices are up. Some people in this group are willing to pay a premium for an original car, and as such original cars will bring more money most of the time.

I don't see younger generations paying any attention to these cars. The few young hot rodders out there have long concentrated on rice burners. Those are the cars that they are growing up with.

They have little interest and no knowledge of Vintage Corvettes. Granted, there may be some who get into the hobby, but the odds are very much against ever seeing the numbers of collectors that we have today.

When we're gone I think that the overall market will go down and so will the price, just like the Mopars did. As for original cars, Corvettes will be expensive enough as it is, so I don't think that there will be many people willing to pay the premium. It just won't mean as much.

Paul

[Jim C.]

Re: Originality

Again I say, lots of really good opinions on this topic. I've loved Corvettes since I was a kid in the 1960s. I got my first 1966 in 1983. I've only had two 1966 small blocks over the last 27 years. When I got my first one, the car was 17 years old and virtually untouched, complete with POP, the works. I had absolutely no clue what I had, but was just happy to finally have a mid 60s Corvette. I didn't actually learn what I had until I went to a Corvette show at the GM Tech Center in Warren, Michigan, during the summer of 1986.

The show was sponsored by the "GMC Corvette Set." I thought it was just a "shine and show" type of event, until a couple guys (judges I guess) came around and asked if I was ready to have my car inspected? I had no idea what they were talking about. I said "sure." After some time, they finished looking at my car, and both said it was a "time capsule." I still had no clue what was going on. A little later, one of the guys who looked at my car earlier, came back and spent about an hour giving me the education I didn't know I needed. When I left that show, I had a much greater appreciation for my car, and what it meant to have a "numbers matching," truly original, Corvette.

The point I'm making is that the information has to be taught to the next owners of these great cars. I have two boys (17 and 15), and both fully understand, and appreciate the value of an old Corvette, particularly one that's in original condition. They understand "numbers matching" (by my narrow definition) and the importance of keeping the car as close to original as possible. They understand that restoration means correct bolt head markings, and using original correctly dated, correctly numbered parts, etc. etc. The next generation of Corvette owners just has to learn. We have to teach them.

I would like to think that twenty years from now, there will still be people who understand, and want original, "numbers matching" Corvettes from the 50s, 60s and 70s. I also believe that "real deal" Corvettes will still command premium prices when compared against similar cars that are restored but not "numbers matching." We'll just have to wait and see. In the mean time, keep driving them, and keep them as original as possible.

By the way, that Corvette Show I was telling you about was the 11th Annual Fox Frolic Corvette Show, held on July 26 & 27, 1986. At the end of the show, my car received an "Award of Excellence, First Rank" certificate that was signed by Hugh Patterson (??) and Vic Hufnagel (??) .

Jim C.

[Loren S.]

Re: Originality

In about 20 years the block decking checker will have been invented, and the judges will be able to touch the meter to the stamp pad on the judging field and tell within a few seconds if it is an unmolested or a restoration block.

[Jim C.]

Re: Originality

Loren,

I actually hope the "block decking checker" will be invented sooner rather than later. That might clear up some of the "original stamp pad" debates once and for all. My Corvette would probably benefit from such a device.

Jim C.

[Gene M.]

Re: Originality

Guys,
The use of a "block decking checker" would have to be visual. The reason being that all judging is supposed to be "appears" which by definition is visual.

No where in the manual could I find that the aid of devices to determine correctness of components is acceptable for the term "appears". I would there for consider scopes, magnets, densitometers, metallurgical, and electron microscopes to be outside of the definition of "appears". Since these type of devices are for confirmation of the evaluated part and that is not what our judging system requires. It only requires appears, (looking with your eyes) not the validation by scientific means.

But if such a device ("block decking checker") was to be incorporated into the judging of VIN marked pieces it sure would eliminate all the problems we have today.