Originality

[Steve B.]

Re: Originality

If such a device is ever invented, I would have no problem if it was incorporated in judging.

[Terry M.]

Re: Originality

Guys,
The use of a "block decking checker" would have to be visual. The reason being that all judging is supposed to be "appears" which by definition is visual.

No where in the manual could I find that the aid of devices to determine correctness of components is acceptable for the term "appears". I would there for consider scopes, magnets, densitometers, metallurgical, and electron microscopes to be outside of the definition of "appears". Since these type of devices are for confirmation of the evaluated part and that is not what our judging system requires. It only requires appears, (looking with your eyes) not the validation by scientific means.

But if such a device ("block decking checker") was to be incorporated into the judging of VIN marked pieces it sure would eliminate all the problems we have today.

Since magnification by various means is already the accepted practice I humbly (well not so, but you get the idea) suggest that cat is already out of the bag. No one can put that toothpaste back into the tube, so the tool used makes no difference. And for what it is worth there is already a tool that measures surface finish. Although I doubt surface finish alone would tell us much about the authenticity of the pad.

[Michael W.]

Re: Originality

Although I doubt surface finish alone would tell us much about the authenticity of the pad.

Especially given the huge degree of variation in original factory surface finishes.

Judging typical factory production is one thing- verifying authenticity is another.

[Terry M.]

Re: Originality

Especially given the huge degree of variation in original factory surface finishes.

Judging typical factory production is one thing- verifying authenticity is another.

Amen brother.

[Gene M.]

Re: Originality

Terry,
As judging chairman at our chapter meets I want all owners and judging to be on the same playing field and treated as equal and fair as possible.

Not all judges have "instruments" to aid judging questionable stampings, etc. I feel a c1 owner should have the same means of evaluation being done their Corvette as the c2, c3, etc. So in this light I instruct no scopes, magnets, densitometers, metallurgical, and electron microscopes, etc. be on the judging field for evaluation. Please use only eyes (with glasses if necessary) and only a flash light and a small mirror for difficult spots.

This may not catch bad pads but that is not the goal of NCRS judging. It would be nice to "catch" them but all cars and all classes should be using the same means of judging.

Now if NCRS provided all chapters with the "approved devices" to verify more completely, that would be good.

So for the time being I think we should keep judging just "human visual" as I think the manuals imply.

[Terry M.]

Re: Originality

Hello everyone,
I wanted to get your opinions on how important an original driveline vs a
matching numbers or numbers that don't match but the parts
correct for the car will be in 10 to 20 years on a mid year Vette?

[Ronald L.]

Re: Originality

A lot of good discussion here, number matching, taking responsibility for your own car, the younger generation, and more.

Why is it the block is such a big deal? How about all those other GM time dated parts of a car. Yes in many respects the engine is the heart of the car, but it is more than just a time ID stamp in iron. It is all about integrity or lack thereof, and where there is benefit of financial gain, it takes on a life of its own for some people. To that end, I question how we can ask a new first time owner to be accountable of an unknown in the car's history. How do we do that? Sure, life would have been real easy had Chevrolet recorded and provided option content for 66 an prior cars. 67 to present we only have to deal with lost or faked tank stickers, so there again, factory documentation in the public domain would quell this game of decit and forgery. Without this we go to the next extreme with those turning 327's into 427's, adding side pipes and the list goes on. To boot, you can even get a window sticker that has been artifically aged to match that creation.

Its not clear that it is on the NCRS charter to document, certianly not control, any of this.

Suggesting a data base? C2 registry for example has 300 cars of the 25k+ produced annually recorded, but not any documentation.

The future of Corvette's and NCRS. Yes, the topic is of serious nature. Think about Model T's and A's and cars from the early peroid of the automotive history. Who will own all those cars 20 years from now and will they all be locked up in the collections of a select few? Will there be a restoration and driving club? I can't speak to Ford's, but I can say as others have suggested that knowledge has to be cascaded, taught to the younger generation and as far as that goes with my boys a full 10 years younger that Jim's the only real issue we have is that they are getting a little big for the both of them to share that passenger seat ...

[Terry M.]

Re: Originality

Terry,
As judging chairman at our chapter meets I want all owners and judging to be on the same playing field and treated as equal and fair as possible.

Not all judges have "instruments" to aid judging questionable stampings, etc. I feel a c1 owner should have the same means of evaluation being done their Corvette as the c2, c3, etc. So in this light I instruct no scopes, magnets, densitometers, metallurgical, and electron microscopes, etc. be on the judging field for evaluation. Please use only eyes (with glasses if necessary) and only a flash light and a small mirror for difficult spots.

This may not catch bad pads but that is not the goal of NCRS judging. It would be nice to "catch" them but all cars and all classes should be using the same means of judging.

Now if NCRS provided all chapters with the "approved devices" to verify more completely, that would be good.

So for the time being I think we should keep judging just "human visual" as I think the manuals imply.

I disagree, Gene. C1s have no indication of body or interior color – so they can’t be judged on the same level as C2 & 3 or newer. For years NCRS has demanded C4 and newer Corvette owners get a build sheet for their car and produce it for flight judging, yet no earlier Corvettes have to have build documentation for NCRS judging. The playing field has never been level, and you are not going to level it. If the National and your membership is willing to tolerate your "rules" God Bless you. I won't.

I was recently at an event where the Judging Chairman decreed "No photographs." That is the last time I will participate in an event with that restriction. For years we have encouraged restorers to photograph cars we hold out as examples of “how the factory did it.” This is no time to change those rules on a piecemeal basis. If the BoD wants to change them and apply those changes to everyone, that is one thing but in my opinion it is not the Judging Chairman’s place to make these kinds of rules.

And before all you certain folks get your shorts in a wad, I know what was behind the “no photographs” decree. Deal with the “problem” and don’t use a nuclear bomb when a .22 cal will do the job.

It is not the role of NCRS to "catch" bad pads -- not 20% of them not 50% of them -- none of them. Anyone who takes NCRS judging results to indicate anything about the originality of the car does so at their own peril. Nothing new there -- it is the way it has always been. Live with it, and stop trying to represent NCRS judging as something it is not.

If you want to make your own rules go ahead, but I don't have to play by them. If enough of us vote with our feet, this BS will end.

Edit add: Some day I'll tell you all how I really feel. What happened to the fun?

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Originality

It is not the role of NCRS to "catch" bad pads -- not 20% of them not 50% of them -- none of them. Anyone who takes NCRS judging results to indicate anything about the originality of the car does so at their own peril. Nothing new there -- it is the way it has always been. Live with it, and stop trying to represent NCRS judging as something it is not.

If you want to make your own rules go ahead, but I don't have to play by them. If enough of us vote with our feet, this BS will end.

Edit add: Some day I'll tell you all how I really feel. What happened to the fun?

Well said Terry. We have beat this horse to death on here. Unless the present owner bought the Corvette new can he say it has the original motor. I have a 67 & a 70 that I bought from the original owner which I believe ar the factory blocks but can I or anyone else prove it NO. The only reason for all this BS is the money. This is why you see more BB midyear cars being judged than C-1"S is that they are worth more. Funny that the people that are upset with the resto. engines are mainly complaining about the money because they believe that those cars some how make there's worth less. Roy I believe the reason not as many C-1'S are at NCRS is for the reason I stated. They are not worth as much as BB cars & most have been already been judged. Come to Auburn for ACD. You will see young people looking at cars from the 20'S & 30'S. I had a 36 Cord Conv. Classic cars will always be loved like any piece of art. No one dislikes a painting or sculpture because it's old only if it's ugly.
KEN

[Roy B.]

Re: Originality

All the arguments about NCRS means what? That a Corvette is original or not ?.In all the years I've been in to NCRS only two groups of people go.
1. People that look at Corvettes for resale
2. People that wont to learn right from wrong and enjoy owning a Corvette.
This has always separated people into two groups.
But then I saw a third group of people that dint fit into NCRS and had a different thought .So I started SACE now SACC which recognizes people that improve their Corvette for better enjoyment by up dating their Corvette to their idea of a better Corvette.
So the bottom line is that you peck the game you wont to play, and it can be all three groups!
I miss the days when Corvettes were used cars and if you were lucky to have one to drive , girls wonted to meet you.

[John R.]

Re: Originality

Steve, regarding younger and future enthusiasts.....

My two sisters, one brother and I have our father to blame for our Corvette addiction. We all grew up restoring corvettes with my dad some 35 years ago and continue to keep these cars going (58, 60, 65 and 64). It was his hobby, but none of us knew how it would infect us later in life. Back then we were all pre teens having a lot of fun with dad and are still having fun today. It is a family thing for us and now I have he opportunity to share the experience with our kids and have FUN (they are 8, 11 and 12, and I know what you mean about the "time" thing). I think "FUN" is the real key to all of this and fun is defined by so many of us in different ways. Premium cars appeal to one hobbyist and a nice driver, non numbers to another. The investor hobbyist has fun in his own way and the next guy is just happy to be behind the wheel of any vette regardless of its pedigree.

Personally, I think these cars have a mystique about them that will not easily fade away...GM, Detroit, Muscle, Chevrolet, USA, Pride, apple pie, etc. Hard to beat the looks of a nicely restored 1958, 1963 SWC, 1967 427, just to name a few. Rolling art! This is coming from a guy who could not even drive until 1980 and drove "rice burners" throughout high school and college. This combined with a transfer of the knowledge to the next generation will certainly help the hobby and the value of these cars whether, original, numbers matching or not. Speaking of knowledge and sharing, I am amazed how helpful this discussion board is (only recently have used it) and how responsive the members are. Next step for me is to increase my knowledge by going to my first conference (Charlotte) and attending some judging events. Looking forward to it!

Don't underestimate our future corvette enthusiasts! As many of you know there is something addicting about it.

[Jack P.]

Re: Originality

All the arguments about NCRS means what? That a Corvette is original or not ?.In all the years I've been in to NCRS only two groups of people go.
1. People that look at Corvettes for resale
2. People that wont to learn right from wrong and enjoy owning a Corvette.
This has always separated people into two groups.
But then I saw a third group of people that dint fit into NCRS and had a different thought .So I started SACE now SACC which recognizes people that improve their Corvette for better enjoyment by up dating their Corvette to their idea of a better Corvette.
So the bottom line is that you peck the game you wont to play, and it can be all three groups!
I miss the days when Corvettes were used cars and if you were lucky to have one to drive , girls wonted to meet you.

Hey Roy, that's what I have , an original used corvette and that is what you going to see when I visit you this fall. I have kept it running for more than 40 years and my son is looking forward to driving it when I leave it to him. I enjoy looking at restored vetts, and understand those who used them as non driving works of art, but the real fun is driving them. So this year I will put on over 15,000 miles and love every mile of it.... By the way, the best way I found to get girls with the car , was to park it away from the group of girls and guys. The guys would go over to the car and leave the girls alone. I would go over to the girls. Of course that was when I was younger ???????

Jack

[Jim C.]

Re: Originality

Isn't the real problem that so many people want someone else to tell them the authenticity of the car? That way there is someone else to blame for whatever situation develops.

Learn how to judge the car yourself.

Terry,

I absolutely agree with you. Corvette owners who are interested in more than just owning and driving these old cars should also know a thing or two about them. If judging old Corvettes for originality and authenticity purposes wasn't important to more than just a few people, then I'm guessing that the NCRS would not support "judged events," or even those who have voluntarily taken on that role (as judges) in the hobby.

If you're one of those people who wants more than just owning and driving a classic, I don't necessarily think that it's as easy to just "judge the car yourself." In my case, I want an ORIGINAL classic, or one as close as I can get. That would include the car's block, transmission, etc. I've judged my own car, and its components more than once. Many times in fact. As you probably recall, about a month ago, I started a new thread regarding the casting number on my Corvette's cylinder case. As a result, and without going into all the details, I was contacted by the "authorities" in public and in private. In the end, it all boiled down to the authorities requesting that I send appropriate photos and/or documents, that would be used to validate my claim that my somewhat unusual cylinder case is in fact original to my Corvette.

I've judged my Corvette in the past, and so have others (at sanctioned NCRS events). The cylinder case has been called into question, but was ultimately accepted as original every time. Still, that isn't enough. None with any authoritative power have ever seen my car. My view, as well as the educated opinions of others, isn't enough to satisfy those who could ultimately, and formally, accept my Corvette's block as original to the car itself. That's okay. I sent the photos and I'm waiting for a response.

The point is, I'm not sure anyone is trying to blame anyone else for a situation that may develop. I don't personally feel any need to have my Corvette judged any further. I know what's right and wrong with it. However, I can't officially validate my car's cylinder case without the concurrence of those NCRS members who hold positions of authority. Me judging my own car just isn't enough. I do need someone who can tell me, with authority, about the "authenticity" of my car's cylinder case.

Fortunately, or not, the NCRS has to some extent assumed a position of authority. It prints judging manuals, it recognizes judges and team leaders, and it sponsors events where Corvettes are judged. Consequently, I like many others, do look to the NCRS, and those who have positions of authority within the organization, for guidance in matters that pertain to a Corvette's originality, authenticity and correctness.

Jim C.

[Pat M.]

Re: Originality

Although I realize NCRS is still not "verifying" anything, isn't Bowtie/Crossed Flags judging evaluating a car's authenticity/originality? Both ask:

"Does the item, part, fabric, plating or coating appear to actually be that which was specifically installed or applied ON THIS CAR at the time of manufacture?"

[Stan E.]

Re: Originality

I'm with Gene on this,right is right!