Originality

[Karl K.]

Hello everyone,
I wanted to get your opinions on how important an original driveline vs a
matching numbers or numbers that don't match but the parts
correct for the car will be in 10 to 20 years on a mid year Vette?

[Tracy C.]

Re: Originality

I suspect that in 10 - 20 years anyone who can really tell the difference between real and memorex restamps will either be dead or past the point of caring in their life.

I know that sounds cold..... consequently, I see no difference in value at that point.

tc

[Steve B.]

Re: Originality

I suspect that in 10 - 20 years anyone who can really tell the difference between real and memorex restamps will either be dead or past the point of caring in their life.

I know that sounds cold..... consequently, I see no difference in value at that point.

tc

I have to respectfully disagree on this. My guess is that there will always be people who know and care about what is the real deal vs a fake or a restamp. This generation may not care in 20 years but I would bet that future owners will still want the real deal and will pay accordingly.

[Gene M.]

Re: Originality

Too bad that NCRS does not share the value of a real original engine verse a restamp..........

Even when a known obvious restamp is presented for judging no distinction is made verse a real original engine.

"Restoration engine" is plain bs. It's fooling with VIN numbers and is just wrong.

[Tom S.]

Re: Originality

I think a nice original car will always be worth a good buck,or even numbers matching as far as that goes. If Americans don't step up to the plate alot of Europeans will.Just MHO.Tom Stanton #41491

[Jim C.]

Re: Originality

I'm going for the original matching numbers car EVERY time - even twenty years from now. There's a lot to what constitutes matching numbers. Everyone's definition might be a little different. My definition is pretty simple. I'd want a Corvette that had a frame, body, cylinder case, transmission case and rear end that were mated at the factory. To me, that's the important stuff. It would be nice if all the bolt on stuff (water pump, carb, manifolds, etc.) were original to the car too. That's not always possible, but it's still relatively easy to find original, correctly dated, rebuilt parts if you look around and have the money. However, there's only ONE frame, body, block and transmission that are specific to a particular VIN. It's only my opinion, but I think that Corvettes still having those original, factory mated components, should be treated as "premium" vehicles.

Jim C.

[Michael W.]

Re: Originality

Even when a known obvious restamp is presented for judging no distinction is made verse a real original engine.

Huh? Did the judging rules change again?

[Joe R.]

Re: Originality

Hello everyone,
I wanted to get your opinions on how important an original driveline vs a
matching numbers or numbers that don't match but the parts
correct for the car will be in 10 to 20 years on a mid year Vette?

Karl,

It depends on what you want to do with the car. If you plan to hang on to the car and enjoy it for what it is, I don't know that it matters much how original the drivetrain is. When you go to sell it, then it makes a big difference. I think it always will.

Joe

[Tim E.]

Re: Originality

I tend to think it will be even more important (and valuable) 20 years from now than it is today. 20 years ago, when the cars were newer, it was less important compared to what we look for today. I think the trend will continue. Original engines to the car (not to be confused with numbers matching) will be the most valuable. Tim

[Gene M.]

Re: Originality

I'm going for the original matching numbers car EVERY time - even twenty years from now. There's a lot to what constitutes matching numbers. Everyone's definition might be a little different. My definition is pretty simple. I'd want a Corvette that had a frame, body, cylinder case, transmission case and rear end that were mated at the factory. To me, that's the important stuff. It would be nice if all the bolt on stuff (water pump, carb, manifolds, etc.) were original to the car too. That's not always possible, but it's still relatively easy to find original, correctly dated, rebuilt parts if you look around and have the money. However, there's only ONE frame, body, block and transmission that are specific to a particular VIN. It's only my opinion, but I think that Corvettes still having those original, factory mated components, should be treated as "premium" vehicles.

Jim C.

Jim, I like your values in an original car. But it is unfortunate that NCRS judging does not make any distinction between "Real Cars" with the exact same drivetrains with the one and only specific serial numbered components that GM sold it with verse the restamped artificial serial numbered components not installed by GM workers.

Even when it is known and/or proof positive it is not the original serial numbered component it is accepted on the judging field. Restoration is not supposed to be an art of passing off a fake serial number as original. In seems NCRS now endorses application of serial numbers on components to appear as the original serial numbered piece GM sold originally. Just sinful.

[Michael W.]

Re: Originality

Even when it is known and/or proof positive it is not the original serial numbered component it is accepted on the judging field.

Gene, this is your second swipe at this. Can you guide me to something in the NCRS judging guides that backs up your point?

[Gene M.]

Re: Originality

Michael,
I don't know where you will find it in print on an NCRS document. But I was at a National meet in Boston with a chapter member having his car judged. I know for a fact the VIN numbers on this base engine car are original to the car. It was his dad's car and I personally looked at the bare block when we torn down for rebuild. It is original as the day installed, no question. Was never touched.

Judges at this national meet said stamping not original. I was there hearing the words come out of the team leaders mouth saying the owner should restamp the block. Team leader also volunteered to provide names of the people to do it.

Now if you don't think this left a bad taste in this chapter members mouth....... rethink it.

[Michael W.]

Re: Originality

The goal of Flight Judging is to assess resemblance to typical factory production, not to certify originality of a given component. An error in judgement on the part of one member out of 15,000 does not mean the rest of us agree or that the organization as a whole has a problem.

[Tracy C.]

Re: Originality

......it is unfortunate that NCRS judging does not make any distinction between "Real Cars" with the exact same drivetrains with the one and only specific serial numbered components that GM sold it with verse the restamped artificial serial numbered components not installed by GM workers....

Even when it is known and/or proof positive it is not the original serial numbered component it is accepted on the judging field. Restoration is not supposed to be an art of passing off a fake serial number as original. In seems NCRS now endorses application of serial numbers on components to appear as the original serial numbered piece GM sold originally. Just sinful.

Gene, based on you membership number, you've been around here much longer than me and certainly long enough to know that the point value of the broach marks, VIN derivitive and Assy Code stampings are less than 1% each of the total possible score. Rationale for this low point value is to discourage counterfeit drivetrains.

Creating a special class for "absolute original" drivetrain cars (try to prove that one) would drive a marked increase in shady activity and put the "certifiing agency" (the NCRS) at financial risk through litigation should an awarded car ever be proven to have something other than an "absolute original" drivetrain.

Frankly, we don't need that hanging over our head. This organization is for hobbist, not automotive investment bankers. We discourage counterfeits and do not define restoration as such. I'm sorry you had a bad experience at Boston, but to echo Mike Ward's sentiments, don't paint us all with the same brush.

tc

[Jim C.]

Re: Originality

I think there have been some pretty good opinions shared on this topic. It seems to me that "numbers matching" should mean exactly that - numbers matching. Since a VIN is singular in nature, a particular VIN and/or VIN derivative can ONLY be common to one car. Therefore, my definition of "numbers matching" means all the parts bearing a VIN or VIN derivative match. Theoretically that would mean those parts/components bearing that singular VIN were mated at the factory. Once those parts/components have been permanently separated, for whatever reason, the car is no longer "numbers matching." That's probably a very narrow definition, and I'm SURE I'm inviting dissenting opinions, but that's okay. Blast away!!!

I think "restoration" occurs when a "numbers matching" Corvette's non VIN parts/components are carefully chosen (if necessary) to represent the car's appearance/performance as they were the day it left the factory. To me (again just my opinion) that means all dated parts are within the correct time period as compared to the build date of the car, and the parts themselves bear the correct part numbers, casting numbers, and identification that show them to be original, non reproduction, vintage items. For parts/components that do not bear such numbers and identification, then every effort should be made to save the original items, replace worn out original and non original items with original items, or under the worst circumstances, replace them with the best reproduction parts available based on appearance and performance.

A Corvette bearing any sort of re-stamp, particularly of VIN and/or VIN derivative parts/components, even without any intent to deceive or defraud, can't be considered a "numbers matching" car under my definition. At best, it can only be considered a "restoration." If done well, I think the car should still be considered for Top Flight status. But like I said in my first post on this topic, only those cars still retaining their ORIGINAL factory mated VIN and VIN derivative parts/components should be considered "premium" vehicles. Now and in the future, those premium Corvettes should be valued at a greater level than any other example which doesn't retain the critical VIN/VIN derivative part(s)/component(s).

Again, it's just my opinion based on my very narrow definition of "numbers matching." I'd also like to say that my Corvette has seen some "restoration" including the addition of some original GM, rebuilt, date/number correct parts. Unfortunately, it also has it's share of reproduction parts. Ultimately, I believe the true "numbers matching" Corvette will more likely hold it's value better than a nicely "restored" non numbers matching car. Let's check back in twenty years or so and see what happened. I could be wrong, but in twenty years, I'll still be willing to pay the "premium."

Jim C