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Chris Enstrom
North Central Chapter Judging Chairman
1967 Rally Red convertible, 327/350, 4 speed, Duntov @ Hampton in 2013, Founders @ KC in 2014, family owned since 1973
2011 Z06, red/red -
Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
I know two friends that purchased NCRS Corvettes that were judged Top Flight in the 1990's. They heard the car was a TOP FLIGHT, and were both pleased to discover they had received the award.
Same holds true for PHS (Pontiac Historical Services ). Another good friend passed on a 65 GTO last year at RUSSO and STEEL, where a beautiful car with 3x2, 4 speed, PW, Wood wheel, Air Conditioning, PB was presented with PHS docs. I called Jim Mattison on the spot, and gave him a credit card for fresh review. We discovered the car "when born", had no
3x2, no wood wheel, no power windows. Nice high $$$ restoration that fortunately went to someone else's garage.
There is no substitite for FACTORY PAPERWORK, and OWNERSHIP HISTORY.Over 80 Corvettes of fun ! Love Rochester Fuel Injection 57-65 cars. Love CORVETTE RACE CARS
Co-Founder REGISTRY OF CORVETTE RACE CARS.COMComment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
I can attest to what Dick writes in regard to certificate numbers. But, my Regional award certificate has no "seal" on it, other than a Texas Chapter logo printed on it, in the number area of the certificate. It is NOT an embossed seal, which is what I expect when the term "seal" is used.
I have a chapter and a regional Flight certificate and both have a number printed on them. Both certificates are from Texas Chapter judging meets within the last ten months. My concern is that if a "restorer" can turn a '69 6-cyl. Camaro into a Z/28 and more than quadruple his car's value, what prevents an unscrupulous person from forging/faking a Top Flight certificate? I guess the NCRS Awards Confirmation Document helps Corvette owners in this matter.
What someone else stated worries me. It is certainly possible that right after a car is awarded a Top Flight certificate, the owner could remove a lot of correct parts and sell the car, stating the fact that the car took Top Flight. No certificate will prevent this type of misrepresentation of a car. I guess it then comes down to the knowledge of the buyer and the integrity of the seller. Wow. -ClarkComment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
Clark that has always been the situation -- except that the rewards for this activity are now greater, although given the economy they are not as great as they once were. We can not be policemen for Corvette transactions.
I was party to a conversation with a car purchaser just this past weekend. He bought a 1972 LT1 AC car from a well known used Corvette dealer. The AIR system was missing. When he tracked the sale to the previous owner that person stated the AIR system was in a box with the car. So parts go missing as cars change hands without respect to any judging. I think the phrase is "Caveat Emptor." Being well informed is all one can do
Back when I was NTL – before 1999 I watch as cars with the Duntov award changed hands – and the new owners searched for tires, alternators and carburetors suitable for judging. Even among fellow NCRS members car parts didn’t transfer with the car. Now perhaps the first owner had borrowed those parts for judging, or he saw an opportunity to maximize his return – regardless the motivation, parts attrition went on back in the 80s and 90s. It is a jungle out there.
Just to throw more junk in the game -- NCRS has issued numbered certificates only for a finite time. ALL my 1970 judging was done before there were numbered certificates. Do I care? Nope. I know the awards the car has received, and I don't believe I have to prove them to anyone. If someone were to pay for an awards confirmation for my 1970 they would get their money's worth. I would bet it was judged over a dozen times, and might be as high as 20 times. None of those NCRS awards have a number on them, as far as I know. The ones from some other judging organizations, and there are plenty of those also, do have numbers.Last edited by Terry M.; January 27, 2010, 11:37 AM.TerryComment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
Parts missing, parts changed, engine failure, all kinds of things happen, these are the very reason our award certificates all have a statement on the back that says
The disclaimer on the back of the Award Confirmation Document makes the above statement seem simple.
I remember discussing your 1970 and the number of times it had been judged or displayed; when we looked it up years ago it was over fifteen as I thought it might have been one of the 1968-1972 cars judged the most often. Most may not realize it but as you well know there was a time when NCRS did not judge the 1968 and later cars, there is probably a time when they did not judge 1963 and later cars although it most likely was before our time in the organization.Comment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
I joined just after the commotion about judging mid-years, and the feelings were still strong among some members. One had to be very careful about what one said in certain circles. Fortunately I had a mentor in Carl Strohm who took me under his wing and kept me from stepping into the pile of do-do most of the time.
As you know, I was one of the promoters of the judging of early C3 Corvettes which began in 1985. We are now at the point where the acceptance of new models is expected to come with the passing of time. Of course the effort to produce acceptable judging manuals continues.
NCRS has come a long way since those days -- and most of it for the better. That doesn't mean that I don't miss the simpler days when Corvettes were just used cars, and most of us talked about Corvette details rather than health care and retirement plans. Still some things, like the attrition of parts and the reliance on judging certificates, are still the same.TerryComment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
I remember being one of the "red headed step children" when I joined. I did not want anything to do with C-1 cars and very little to do with C-2's. My, how have things changed, for the better thankfully. You have to move forward or you will wilt and die on the vine.Dick WhittingtonComment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
I appreciate Roy Sinor explaining the issue of the B-J verification process.Good carburetion is fuelish hot air . . .Comment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
Wow!! What a thread. I find all this to be very interesting to myself personally, as I consider myself to be a "veteran" of the Scottsdale B-J auction who has attended many of the last 10 years. When I read (on this board) about the the "Market Seminar", I felt this was something I needed to attend if possible, as I believe the current market is directly relative to what I do in the "hobby". While I enjoyed the seminar and found many points interesting, I do have some thoughts I would like to share after reading this thread. First, there was a statement made early in the seminar which "inferred" that all of the Corvettes accepted for auction were "authenticated" in some way before being allowed in the auction, NOT just the ones which had received an NCRS award that was documented (maybe I got the wrong impression). Within an hour of leaving the seminar, I got to inspect a "bogus" (my opinion) big block C3 that had all the appearances of being an original small block car (again, my opinion), which had me questioning statements made at the seminar. Second, that while interesting it seemed that very much of the seminar dealt with the value and collect-ability of L88, L89 cars, with them being "keepers", as they would be increasing in value (really????
). Many of the panelists mentioned the 63 "Grand Sports", as not only being valuable, but the "Holy Grail" when it came to cars they dreamed of owning. While that may be true, I had to ask myself: Who are they talking to?? If memory serves me correctly there were 216 L88's over a three year period, and 5-63 Grand Sports. Granted there were a few more L89's (just over 1000?), but I could not help but wonder how many people in the room actually had one of these cars to keep, or could even afford one if it was available. I did find the varying opinions on "preserve, or restore" question to be interesting to myself as this is something I find myself toiling over at times when faced with original cars, and a decision to make in that regard. As the seminar progressed, I found myself wondering how many would now consider "making" an L88 or L89 if they could (and the parts were available to them) because these were the cars determined to be the most valuable "keepers" by the panel. All in all, I did not personally feel that I left with any greater sense of current market value of the types of cars I see the most, and feel are the most likely to be found that are "real cars". In that group I would include the small block and lower horsepower vehicles.
They did take a limited amount of questions from the audience, so when the opportunity presented itself, I was able to ask the biggest question that had been festering in my mind as the seminar progressed with regard to the current market value of the cars mentioned by the panel. Basically my question was in the interest of the folks who own some of these rare and desirable cars, as well as those of us who could only "dream" of owning them, what could we (the panel, the audience, and the average hobbyist) do as a group to help, stop, or discourage the counterfeiting and mis-representing of the stamper and bogus cars that seem to be ever increasing in the "market". I am not sure I got any kind of real answer from any of the panelists (actually, none at all), as someone decided on that note that it was time to conclude the seminar. I guess my question was not relevant enough for a response, or someone decided it did not apply to the "interests" of the current market value of the cars we all take so much interest in.
LynnComment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
Excuse me, but I have read all of these emails and fail to see any item that is normally allowed on the TDB. Is there a technical issue here? What is it? Could one of the monitors please delete this thread before it grows more legs?Last edited by Chuck L.; January 27, 2010, 06:29 PM.Chuck Lyman
Kansas City ChapterComment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
While I recognize the merits of an "award confirmation", instead of the $300 fee, wouldn't it be pretty simple for NCRS to maintain an electronic database which shows the VIN and relevant awards won for that VIN?Comment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
Rick,
Please forgive me, but I have to try one more time to explain this. The Top Flight on your 67 is not worthless, nor do you have to spend $300 for the Award Confirmation. You took your Corvette to the show field. Your 67 earned a Top Flight. You know the car has a Top Flight. There is no reason to get the Award Confirmation service. If you ever went to sell your car, and a potential buyer wanted to confirm through the NCRS that your car really does have a Top Flight, then they will spend the $300 and have the NCRS tell them yes your car as a Top Flight. No where do you have to spend additional money and get this confirmation. You know your had has the award.
The confirmation service is a positive aspect of the NCRS and one that will aid potential buyers, purchasing NCRS certified cars.
-DaveComment
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Re: Roy Sinor Seen at Barrett-Jackson
Dave, let me try to explain that there are several instances in which an owner might want the confirmation service.
An owner could lose his awards and want something showing the awards he's gotten. An owner could pass away, and his family might want to confirm what awards the car recieved. And there could be an instance where a buyer would insist that the seller provide the confirmation service to prove the owner's awards are not fake.
The point of some of us is WHATEVER the reason an owner might want the service for - whether it makes sense to anyone else or not - that owner should not have to pay to confirm the awards he's already paid handsomely to get in the first place.Comment
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