Big Block intake end seals & GM logo tabs

[Joseph S.]

There was a thread started earlier regarding the Big Block end seals. In it there was some communication about whether or not a deduction should be taken for not having the GM logo tabs. I believe there is some confusion or lack of knowledge when it comes to Big Block intake gaskets.

I stated in the thread that it is impossible to see the GM logo in the rear and it is definitely impossible to see in the front since the tab is inside the intake valley. The car in question received a 1 point deduction. I don't know how the judges got to a full 1 point deduction on this and I would love to see them work out the math. Regardless, I thought I would post a few photos of the end seal uninstalled and installed on a 65 Big Block engine. Photos are attached. I would entertain a conversation on this if anyone has any thoughts, questions, additional information or photos.

[Tony S.]

Good post, Joe.

[Richard M.]

There was a thread started earlier regarding the Big Block end seals...
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Ref thread link below...

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/forum/te...who-sells-them

[Dennis D.]

I guess if a judge is applying CDCIF , configuration and date could be applied to the back gasket for missing the tab. Judging guide states " on big block cars the tab MAY ONLY BE VISIBLE AT THE REAR." You got 25 points for intake manifold, bolts, gaskets and seals. Oh well, a point isn't out of the question, and especially since it is called out in the judging guide with a picture. But if the car was very correct with very few deductions, as they say, "You gotta give a dog a bone to chew on". By the way, where did you find intake gaskets with the tabs? Last time I looked, about 5 years ago, they were hard/impossible to find.

[Joseph S.]

I guess if a judge is applying CDCIF , configuration and date could be applied to the back gasket for missing the tab. Judging guide states " on big block cars the tab MAY ONLY BE VISIBLE AT THE REAR." You got 25 points for intake manifold, bolts, gaskets and seals. Oh well, a point isn't out of the question, and especially since it is called out in the judging guide with a picture. But if the car was very correct with very few deductions, as they say, "You gotta give a dog a bone to chew on". By the way, where did you find intake gaskets with the tabs? Last time I looked, about 5 years ago, they were hard/impossible to find.

Dennis, First off, as you can see in the photos. There is no way to see the tab or GM logo. So, benefit of the doubt to the owner. NO Deduction. Second, let's break it all down. 25 points.

Intake 20 Points
Hardware 2 Points
Side Gaskets & Thermostat gasket 2 Points
End seals 1 Point, or 0.5 points per 20% configuration = 0.1 points NO DEDUCTION

How about this way.

Intake 15 points
Hardware 4 points
Side gaskets, & thermostat gasket 3 points
End seals 3 points, or 1.5 points per end seal. 20% configuration = 0.3 points. NO DEDUCTION

There is no way a deduction should be taken for the end seal tabs on a BB car.

Now, how to get them. They are everywhere. I have a bin full of them. Even the Victor, Mahle & Felpro gaskets will give you an end seal with a tab on it. The tab will be blank. But since you can't see the GM on them no big deal.

I said earlier, I would love to see the math where you take a 1 point deduction on a part that you can't see. The most important item in that line is the Intake manifold since it has a casting number and Casting date. The other items just don't carry enough weight to them.

[Mark F.]

I’ve never judged a car – or have had my car judged (2 Regionals 2000 & 2003; and 1 National 2003) under the formalized CDCIF system, so consider this post as possibly naive…

I was curious how my car would score from those 3 events using CDCIF. So, I expanded my original spreadsheet to do all that for me – once you decide what weighting factor to use (shown in red font percentages below) and by placing an “X” in the appropriate deduct column (yellow cells). The point value deducts and associated totals/%s are automatically calculated.

Using Joe’s two examples from post #5 above, I back-calculated what those weighting factors would be (see image below).

My questions are:
❶ Have those weighting factors for multi-line judged items been established or generally agreed-upon by those most knowledgeable about CDCIF judging ?
❷ Or are those weightings left up to the judge’s discretion ?

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[Brian E.]

Watching...

[Joseph S.]

Mark,

Great example.

The lines with multiple items listed to judge must be broken down and agreed upon by the judges that day. We have not gone through all judging sheets and applied point allotments to each item. However, as you can see, there is a bit of subjectivity that will still allow a proper and consistent end result from meet to meet.

Now, all that being said, if a judge wanted to go off the map and apply a crazy point total to something in order to be able to deduct a point, his teammate or team leader will/should set him straight. It it part of our CDCIF teaching to reinforce that just because someone feels there should be a deduction, if the math does not work out to a deduct, none can be taken.

Joe

[John L.]

1967 mechanical judges generally don't put too much emphasis on the tabs.