Brake pads revisited

[Gary B.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

My 17D8 pads came yesterday and went back today. The website says "organic" and the box says non-ferrous ceramic. Closer reading on the web site and it has the AC Delco phrase verbatim

• Ceramic, semi-metallic, and organic formulas provide safety and reliability for a range of vehicle applications.

Gary B.,
Please let me know what your pads are when they come in. I have found 14D8s at Rock Auto and Amazon but the hilarious thing is that the Amazon site says "ships in 2 to 5 weeks". Rock Auto is 3 days.

Gary S

Gary S,

Will do. I think I should get them this Friday.

Gary

[Duke W.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Leif,
That is exactly what I received and just sent back today. I am sure that they will work well (see Duke's response) but if you are looking for organic, those are not it.

I notice the friction code is FF.

Gary B. - when you get the 14D8s snap some photos or tell us the two digit friction code.

Duke

[Gary S.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Duke,
You always have great technical information. Thank you. If the 14D8s are indeed organic, what friction code would you expect, FG or something else? In addition, your previous comment that "rotor wear with ceramic pads is no more than with NAO" goes against conventional "internet wisdom" (is that an oxymoron ). Most of what I have read (certainly not at the technical level) is that ceramics are great for higher heat tolerance but I bought them because of the low dust. Is there some testing that shows the wear of rotors is minimal? My 72 rotors look brand new, have no scoring and will probably outlast me.

Both of my BMWs had hideous looking wheels after just a few miles of driving and I solved that with ceramics. My days of spirited driving are long gone so I really don't worry about fade.

[Duke W.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Duke, You always have great technical information. Thank you. If the 14D8s are indeed organic, what friction code would you expect, FG or something else? In addition, your previous comment that "rotor wear with ceramic pads is no more than with NAO" goes against conventional "internet wisdom" (is that an oxymoron ). Most of what I have read (certainly not at the technical level) is that ceramics are great for higher heat tolerance but I bought them because of the low dust. Is there some testing that shows the wear of rotors is minimal? My 72 rotors look brand new, have no scoring and will probably outlast me. Both of my BMWs had hideous looking wheels after just a few miles of driving and I solved that with ceramics. My days of spirited driving are long gone so I really don't worry about fade.

Assuming the 14D8 are NAO I would expect the friction rating to be FE, same as the pre-asbestos-ban Delco replacement set that Joe L showed in a previous post, which is likely the same friction material that was originally used in '65. I don't have any direct experience with NAO vs. ceramic, but based on my Mercedes rotor wear I believe that ceramic is very easy on the rotors. I expect that few vintage Corvette owners will ever experience fade with FE pads, but I'm not sure about dust. The ceramic dust is very low and light colored, but I'm not sure how NAO would compare. Another advantage of ceramic is that I think they will last significantly longer than NAO, but given typical annual mileage accumulation, that's probably not much of an issue.

[Gary B.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Guys,

Here are photos of the 14D8 box and pads. Read 'em and weep. I'm bummed. It looks like only ceramic pads are now available from AC Delco. The higher end Professional series 17D8 pads came with a lubricant packet in the box and one other thing which I didn't pay attention to. Maybe shims? The 14D8 box had nothing in it except the pads. It's looks there is a thin plastic shim already bonded to the back side of the 14D8 pads.

The heat rating is FF.

Gary

[Gary S.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Gary B.,
yes the 17d8 pads had removable shims and a lubricant. I'd like to know what makes these significantly cheaper than the 17D8s?

[Gary B.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Gary B.,
yes the 17d8 pads had removable shims and a lubricant. I'd like to know what makes these significantly cheaper than the 17D8s?

Gary S.,

Maybe when a set of 17D8 doesn't pass some higher Q/A spec the are sold as 14D8.

Gary

[Gary S.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Your guess is as good as mine. Are you keeping them? I have an email in to Paragon with the "comparable to OEM" asking them the composition of the pads.

[Gary B.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Gary,

I just printed the UPS mailing label to send them back to Amazon. I told them the item description was incorrect, so Amazon pays for return shipping. I'm very disappointed in AC Delco because of their inability to have their advertising match the actual item specs. We're going to h*&^ in a hand basket.

Gary

[Joe L.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Gary,

I just printed the UPS mailing label to send them back to Amazon. I told them the item description was incorrect, so Amazon pays for return shipping. I'm very disappointed in AC Delco because of their inability to have their advertising match the actual item specs. We're going to h*&^ in a hand basket.

Gary

Gary------


Yup, I'd say that's just about where we're at. There seems to be no certainty, at all, regarding what one will get when ordering an AC Delco part. It used to be that one could at least infer a difference based on the GM "long number". Now, apparently, even that ability has gone by the wayside.

With respect to brake pads, some of this could be driven by, of all things, water pollution control regulations. When I was still in the water pollution control regulatory business an "emerging issue" with respect to stormwater pollution was the effect of the pollutants in brake dust. Of course, lots of this is generated by the millions of cars on the road. The biggest concern was, of course, heavy metals. However, by now, maybe something has turned up regarding the components of organic brake pads. So, maybe that's driving a shift to ceramics. Just a guess, though.

[Duke W.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

It looks like NAO friction materials might be going the way of buggy whips. If any of you still have both the 14D8 and 17D8 in your possession can you take some side by side photos and post. Also, do a careful visual inspection of the friction material with a magnifying glass and strong lighting and tell use if you can detect any visual difference in the friction materials.

[Robert B.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

About 7 years ago and well over 35,000 miles ago I installed a set of Wagner Thermoquiet Semi Metallic MX8 pads on my '67 coupe. I had been fighting brake squeal for a long time. Brake noise was completely eliminated, and I am very pleased with their performance in all kinds of driving conditions in long road trips all over the US.

Bob

[Gary S.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

Btw, in my initial post, I asked about the Paragon Reproduction pads. I called a couple of days ago and they stated "these pads are not organic". Then I emailed an eBay seller who couldn't (wouldn't? ) look at the label to see if these were "non ferrous ceramic) pads.

[Mark E.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

When and how are pad shims installed?

I didn't encounter them during the handful of C2/3 brakes jobs I've performed.

[Leif A.]

Re: Brake pads revisited

When and how are pad shims installed?

I didn't encounter them during the handful of C2/3 brakes jobs I've performed.

Mark,
Look at my post #59...there, you can see the shims installed.