1954 vin tag

[David B.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Everyone is entitled to their opinion Phil and yours I would question. "What makes a Corvette ? The vin tag" Come on!!! Its just another part on the car (#3695564) Info on the print has been out there for years, Regarding the CT State Troopers checking removed vin tags etc., suggest they increase the size of their jail to accommodate 99.9% of NCRS members who have restored their car.

[Richard M.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

According to his Profile Activity, Gilbert has not checked in since he began his post asking for advice. When he does check in he will probably be overwhelmed with all of this discussion. It's a unique situation.

Many C1 cars have lost tags over the years. Screws held them in. I can't imagine any body/paint shop not removing the tag before paint. 1960 to 1962 vin tags welded to the steering column have fallen off in the past and ended up in the gutters and lost forever. Tags get lost. Gilbert's got lost.

If he never finds the original tag and he gets a Texas state issued vin, maybe it would be allowed to use the original number found on the frame/title. Maybe Policy there is that they assign a totally different number, I don't know. As suggested a call to them is in order. What a state issued vin is fabricated from should be a question. Is it a vinyl stick-on, or a TX made metal plate, or some other material?

Or, if it is legally allowed to acquire a Reproduction vin tag and have a unique mark or stamp within the tag such that it's state issued? IF the State allows this it is now Legal. Then NCRS could accept that, correct? We need to rethink cases like this on early C1's.

Regardless, I feel the term "disclosed" should apply. Future owners know the tag got lost and legally replaced. Written documents from the State accompany the car for the rest of it's life and nothing to hide. No deception. Acceptable by the Campaigned event organizations, ours and others.

I feel we need a unique notation regarding our NCRS vin tag policy about a situation like this. The tag got lost because the Chevrolet method of attachment allowed it to easily removed and to potentially get lost. Gilbert disclosed it here. If a State allows a Reproduction Vin tag to be used, and is properly documented and disclosed, I strongly feel our Policy should accommodate it.

Fortunately I have never been involved in a lost tag scenario, but if I owned a later C1 with a tag on the steering column and it fell off, I certainly would think our policy should have a unique exception for situations like this. Same for Gilbert's situation.

Rich

[Gary C.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Rich,

Texas will use the VIN on the frame.

One of the Texas Chapter members bought a C1 with a counterfeit VIN tag. He removed it from Judging and obtained a Texas VIN with the car's VIN number.

Was drug into a counterfeit VIN tag scenario several years. Texas Attorney General said there is no State that by law should accept a home made VIN tag on a vehicle that originally had a factory VIN tag on it when it was manufactured.

Gary
....

[Bruce B.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

David,
I agree with you 100%.
I have removed (but never lost) and installed vin tags on every car I painted.
Thats why GM attached them with screws on early cars........
Bruce B

[John S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

[QUOTE=Roy Sinor (2608);798470]John, As you most likely know I am no longer involved in any shape form or fashion with the organization other than as a member, just as you.

So the fulfillment of your request should be the responsibility of the current management. I can tell you that if ask I would vehemently defend the practice of not releasing details which are currently known by those that can identify reproduction engine pads, vin plates and paperwork, simply because some of the largest counterfeiters in the hobby are members of NCRS - just so they can figure out how to make better counterfeit items.

When it comes to engine pads the NCRS has already accepted the practice on C1s that as long as the engine pad has the proper broach marks and follows proper stamping formats that it is okay to build a engine with a new pad that conforms to NCRS standards. Top flight and duntov cars can and are being rejudged with different pad numbers on their engines. in years like 55, with only 700 cars made, it is fairly obvious that the engines are not from other 55 corvettes. To believe that any or any combination of NCRS members would know more on engine pads than a engine rebulider and restorer that work on engines every day is not a reality.

[John S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

According to his Profile Activity, Gilbert has not checked in since he began his post asking for advice. When he does check in he will probably be overwhelmed with all of this discussion. It's a unique situation.

Many C1 cars have lost tags over the years. Screws held them in. I can't imagine any body/paint shop not removing the tag before paint. 1960 to 1962 vin tags welded to the steering column have fallen off in the past and ended up in the gutters and lost forever. Tags get lost. Gilbert's got lost.

If he never finds the original tag and he gets a Texas state issued vin, maybe it would be allowed to use the original number found on the frame/title. Maybe Policy there is that they assign a totally different number, I don't know. As suggested a call to them is in order. What a state issued vin is fabricated from should be a question. Is it a vinyl stick-on, or a TX made metal plate, or some other material?

Or, if it is legally allowed to acquire a Reproduction vin tag and have a unique mark or stamp within the tag such that it's state issued? IF the State allows this it is now Legal. Then NCRS could accept that, correct? We need to rethink cases like this on early C1's.

Regardless, I feel the term "disclosed" should apply. Future owners know the tag got lost and legally replaced. Written documents from the State accompany the car for the rest of it's life and nothing to hide. No deception. Acceptable by the Campaigned event organizations, ours and others.

I feel we need a unique notation regarding our NCRS vin tag policy about a situation like this. The tag got lost because the Chevrolet method of attachment allowed it to easily removed and to potentially get lost. Gilbert disclosed it here. If a State allows a Reproduction Vin tag to be used, and is properly documented and disclosed, I strongly feel our Policy should accommodate it.

Fortunately I have never been involved in a lost tag scenario, but if I owned a later C1 with a tag on the steering column and it fell off, I certainly would think our policy should have a unique exception for situations like this. Same for Gilbert's situation.

Rich

I LOVE THIS GUY! a very open minded approach.

[Don H.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Anyone with background in law enforcement, especially auto theft investigations will know that a VIN tag on any motor vehicle is NOT the same as any other part of said motor vehicle. You cannot just go to a dealership parts counter, or FLAPS and buy a replacement VIN tag. There is a reason why NCRS accepts that any part of a corvette can be changed from the actual original part that the car was built with, including the engine, EXCEPT for the VIN tag. Because VIN tags were attached to some C1 cars with screws does not mean that they are the same as all other parts on the car. Auto theft is a felony. NCRS does not want to take on the responsibility of having to decide if a car with non-original VIN tag may or may not be a stolen car.

[Roy S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

To believe that any or any combination of NCRS members would know more on engine pads than a engine rebulider and restorer that work on engines every day is not a reality.

Really, with that statement by you given your participation level in the actual NCRS judging/training processes and my involvement before retiring - I have come to the conclusion that my attempt to answer a few questions for you has been of no assistance, obviously our knowledge/education/enlightenment paths differ on this subject immensely there is nothing else I can or will contribute.

[Jim D.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Well said Don and Roy. I'm amazed at the casual attitude some people have regarding VIN tags. I'm a member of a foreign car forum where it is common practice to remove the VIN from a totaled or rusted out car and put it on one with a nicer body as the body's are basically the same for 15+ years. When I pointed out that it's a felony to do so, not a single person thought they were doing anything wrong. It's true, you can't fix stupid.

[John S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Well said Don and Roy. I'm amazed at the casual attitude some people have regarding VIN tags. I'm a member of a foreign car forum where it is common practice to remove the VIN from a totaled or rusted out car and put it on one with a nicer body as the body's are basically the same for 15+ years. When I pointed out that it's a felony to do so, not a single person thought they were doing anything wrong. It's true, you can't fix stupid.

we are talking about C1 tags! to this day many people, including law enforcement do not believe that the tag was originally held by screws. this is one of the reasons you see where some of the tags are riveted. another problem was the location of the tag. when it came to registering the car some people did not know where the vin tag was located. a large number of vehicles are registered and titled by the engine pad. this meant the tag was no longer needed and sometimes would lead to confusion if left on the car.

[Bruce B.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Don,
Since NCRS does not "CERTIFY" any cars there is no legal responsibility on their part.
Bruce B

[John S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Really, with that statement by you given your participation level in the actual NCRS judging/training processes and my involvement before retiring - I have come to the conclusion that my attempt to answer a few questions for you has been of no assistance, obviously our knowledge/education/enlightenment paths differ on this subject immensely there is nothing else I can or will contribute.

roy, you are extremely knowledgeable and we on the forum are fortunate that you are still posting. I learned a considerable amount from the forum and various seminars that I have sat in on. My comment about engine pads comes from my experience from seminars on engine pads in comparison to what I learned in the small amount of time I spent visiting and assisting two of the top engine restorers. seminars are great for learning, but a little bit of hands on and in house experience really gives you a small grasp of what a professional is capable of. as for my contributions, maybe you should read my input on 55s in the NCRS and Corvette forums. you will notice that in the past few years I have posted a large number of updates about 55s that were never in any books. believe it or not a few items are actually starting to appear in the judging manual. i have attended a lot of judging meets, but that is not the time to present items that might differ from the judging manual. i do try to communicate and mention changes i think should be made with members that i feel have a hand in updating the judging guide. Just a couple of weeks ago I presented Troy Pyles with a couple items that I felt should be updated!

[Philip A.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Everyone is entitled to their opinion Phil and yours I would question. "What makes a Corvette ? The vin tag" Come on!!! Its just another part on the car (#3695564) Info on the print has been out there for years, Regarding the CT State Troopers checking removed vin tags etc., suggest they increase the size of their jail to accommodate 99.9% of NCRS members who have restored their car.

I support my opinion by post #37. I would greatly appreciate others opinions regarding what makes a Corvette a Corvette, and why rather than just disagreeing.