1954 vin tag

[Bruce B.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

John,
There are some cars that are judged using borrowed parts to attain a maximum score. So when the car leaves the judging field these parts can and will be removed and replaced with functional parts.
So if you buy a Top Flight car that has been removed from the judging field it is possible that it would not Top Flight if judged again.
An example is the blue air filter on a 57 fuel car, pay $5000.00 or borrow one.
Bruce B

[John S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

John,
There are some cars that are judged using borrowed parts to attain a maximum score. So when the car leaves the judging field these parts can and will be removed and replaced with functional parts.
So if you buy a Top Flight car that has been removed from the judging field it is possible that it would not Top Flight if judged again.
An example is the blue air filter on a 57 fuel car, pay $5000.00 or borrow one.
Bruce B

I am not talking about a borrowed(such as a original jack, wiper blades, air cleaner, etc. for a C1) or removed part. that can be expected and would not get a car "disqualified" from judging.

[Bruce B.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

True, that is not what I meant.

[Tracy C.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

.... NCRS better rethink "disqualification" of a vehicle due to a vin tag.

Why is that John? What do you think we can possibly gain by ignoring fake VIN tags? What might we loose?? If your only answer is membership numbers, I doubt that anyone on the BoD would agree that added membership outweighs a tarnished reputation.

[John S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Why is that John? What do you think we can possibly gain by ignoring fake VIN tags? What might we loose?? If your only answer is membership numbers, I doubt that anyone on the BoD would agree that added membership outweighs a tarnished reputation.

the point is a lot of C1 over the years have had their vin tags replaced. just recently have people began to realize there are a lot of C1s with replacement tags. if a person has a vin number on a tag that is not original to the car there is a good chance a car with that vin number will surface and things will be corrected. why create a situation like the ncrs had recently when a 55 engine pad was given a total deduction for a pad that was obviously correct and original. at least in that situation it was just a loss of points.my point is to give the tag a deduction, but omit the policing and "disqualifying". I would think the NCRS reputation would be more tarnished if a good number of prejudged C1s with major awards were later disqualified from being judged.

[Gary C.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

IIRC it's a violation of all the U.S. States law to tamper with or counterfeit a VIN tag.

The law makes a VIN tag all or nothing.

Cars with counterfeit VIN tags are allow to withdraw from Judging without any penalty. They can then obtain a State issued VIN tag and participate in Judging.

Gary
....

[John S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

IIRC it's a violation of all the U.S. States law to tamper with or counterfeit a VIN tag.

The law makes a VIN tag all or nothing.

Cars with counterfeit VIN tags are allow to withdraw from Judging without any penalty. They can then obtain a State issued VIN tag and participate in Judging.

Gary
....

I have not seen anything in the NCRS guides about the correct fonts used on early C1 vin tag or the different fonts on later C1s. does the ncrs have set examples of the fonts and when changes in the fonts occurred? how about the V in 55. do the judges have the correct V on record? where can I view this information?

[Bruce B.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

John,
The decision on vin tag authenticity is purely a judgement call based on the "experts knowledge".
Just like of number of other judgement calls.
I drive mine I don't judge it.....
Bruce B

[David B.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Car is NOT counterfeit. Gilbert made the mistake of making it public knowledge he lost the original tag. There are celebrated multi million dollar cars sold at auction that are far more bogus/counterfeit and nobody questions. Now that is fraud!

[Richard M.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Gilbert, you said the Prior Owner or the paint shop lost it. You bought the car knowing this and you're trying to resolve a situation that you may not have thought would become expanded with this new information. You are being honorable with disclosing this and I feel you should be commended for it.

I agree with David. Your car, as it sits in waiting, is not counterfeit. It's not like you did something wrong. You obviously fell in love with the car and felt passionately compelled to acquire it. You are not alone as this has happened before to others. I sincerely hope that the original tag still exists and can be found. This would certainly resolve the entire situation.

You didn't describe some important details. Did you buy the car and get a valid Title from the State you bought it from? Does that Title match the frame vin, or did you get it on a Bill of Sale? If so, does Texas issue Titles from a BoS or Title only? Does Texas require a Out of State Titled car to be Vin Verified when Texas Title is applied for?

The first thing I would do is do a National Database Search for the vin as depicted on the frame and title(if present). You could do this yourself for a fee online, or have Bill Gould at Autoancestry.com hunt it down for you. Bill is great at this stuff. Stop if there is a problem and if so, then it's time to pause and think what to do. You could then go back to the seller and recoup.

If no problem, then I would try my hardest to work with the PO and the shop to locate the original tag removed-to-paint-the-door-jamb. Every C1 1953 to early 1960 paint job I could ever imagine involves unscrewing 2 little Phillips screws to remove the tag, paint, then screw it back on. Similar thing on later 60 to 62's when the steering box gets pulled for rebuild or body-off job.

It may be just sitting there somewhere. I would put ALL of my energy in a search for it before I did more. IF you do get a State Issued vin, and then found the original Tag, I'm not sure how Texas would treat it if you tried to get it reinstated using your original vin. My gut feel tells me they would not.

Rich
edit... I know a little bit about Texas DMV. A few years ago, a friend who owned his '59 since 1964 who lived there in Texas, took it off the road in the early 70's. He had it apart until a few years ago. He moved to Florida in the interim. He had it restored and finished a year ago. All ready to take his car out for it's first drive in 45+ years just before the new tires went on, he went to the FL DMV to tranfer his TX Title to get his FL Title. He called TX ahead of time and discovered they purged his Title for non-activity long ago(no registration plate renewal). So basically, his car didn't exist in the Texas system. They then did a National Database check when he was on the phone with them........ Problem!

The National Database showed his vin was in another state. Ripped mad, he contacted that state. Took months to resolve. Law Enforcement eventually visited the "other" car. It was a 1953 Chevy hot rod, with a 1959 Corvette vin on a hand stamped flat aluminum plate. How that car got a State Title is a mystery, but we all probably know how.

He finally got his '59 Corvette Title in FL and is legally driving his car now. We don't know what happened to the "other" car.

[Roy S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Car is NOT counterfeit. Gilbert made the mistake of making it public knowledge he lost the original tag. There are celebrated multi million dollar cars sold at auction that are far more bogus/counterfeit and nobody questions. Now that is fraud!

Dave, nobody has said his car is counterfeit or fraudulent. NCRS simply has a system that recognizes original VIN plates, GM reissued VIN plates or State issued VIN assignments. Each of those identifications involves legal state issued research. Buying a reproduction plate and passing it by a clerk in a DMV that does not know the difference in a stamped aluminum flat plate and a real VIN plate will not hold up in court. NCRS has chosen the appropriate path recognize those that our system deems legal, don't recognize those that are not.

[John S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Dave, nobody has said his car is counterfeit or fraudulent. NCRS simply has a system that recognizes original VIN plates, GM reissued VIN plates or State issued VIN assignments. Each of those identifications involves legal state issued research. Buying a reproduction plate and passing it by a clerk in a DMV that does not know the difference in a stamped aluminum flat plate and a real VIN plate will not hold up in court. NCRS has chosen the appropriate path recognize those that our system deems legal, don't recognize those that are not.

Roy, I do not have a argument with what you state. As a member and dues payer of the NCRS I do expect the NCRS to guide me towards a correct restoration and supply the information that will help me in purchasing future vehicles. i brought up that there is a difference of fonts on C1 tags. why are there no references made of these differences in the judging guides that would help a person when purchasing a vehicle or prepare a owner of what the judges expect to see on the judging field. also a detailed picture and explaination of the engine pad in the judging guide would greatly help those new to the hobby.

[Roy S.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

Roy, I do not have a argument with what you state. As a member and dues payer of the NCRS I do expect the NCRS to guide me towards a correct restoration and supply the information that will help me in purchasing future vehicles. i brought up that there is a difference of fonts on C1 tags. why are there no references made of these differences in the judging guides that would help a person when purchasing a vehicle or prepare a owner of what the judges expect to see on the judging field. also a detailed picture and explaination of the engine pad in the judging guide would greatly help those new to the hobby.

John, As you most likely know I am no longer involved in any shape form or fashion with the organization other than as a member, just as you.

So the fulfillment of your request should be the responsibility of the current management. I can tell you that if ask I would vehemently defend the practice of not releasing details which are currently known by those that can identify reproduction engine pads, vin plates and paperwork, simply because some of the largest counterfeiters in the hobby are members of NCRS - just so they can figure out how to make better counterfeit items.

In the meantime I can tell you by signing on to the manual revision teams and contributing your knowledge to the teams it will go a long way toward making the NCRS a better organization. My 26 plus years of contribution I will never forget and it was a privilege too participate.

[Ara G.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

What Roy said. Also, Our organization is based on sharing knowledge, fun and good friends. I consider Roy a friend of mine to boot. However, the sharing of knowledge has to be tempered with keeping certain info out of the hands of those who counterfeit items like engine pads, trim tags and vin tags. We don't want them knowing ALL the info and making better counterfeits. Note i said counterfeits. We want everyone to know how to make or reproduce better/more accurate parts or to educate owners on how to tell the difference between a 4K 67 Bolt on Wheel and a $250 reproduction Bolt on Wheel. However the "Meat and potatoes" - i.e the engine pad, trim and vin tags are sacred to these cars so we have to be cautious with the dissemination of hyper-detailed information so as to avoid the ones counterfeiting these items to have all the tools necessary. It's frustrating to understand for sure.....I would recommend being a judge or OJ on 54's at a meet, talk with owners, talk with judges, attend NCRS classes/seminars. The knowledge you will receive will trump any book or manual...and you will have a blast doing it....Regards...ARA

[Philip A.]

Re: 1954 vin tag

IIRC it's a violation of all the U.S. States law to tamper with or counterfeit a VIN tag.

The law makes a VIN tag all or nothing.

Cars with counterfeit VIN tags are allow to withdraw from Judging without any penalty. They can then obtain a State issued VIN tag and participate in Judging.

Gary
....

Agree. There was an episode of Chasing Cars where CT State Troopers were at an auction checking VIN tags for signs of removal and re-attachment; and some cars were removed from the auction. Regarding NCRS, the heart and point is "restoration". What makes a Corvette a Corvette? The VIN tag!!!! Everything else is a part. A complete car, without a legal VIN, is a collection of assembled parts.