85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

[Ed H.]

Last evening I attended a local all Corvette Show and Shine. I had the good fortune of meeting a most delightful senior citizen.
She was siting in her car show chair, behind a white exterior and marina blue interior 64 coupe. I asked if I could use a flash light to look the car over. She gave me permission to examine any part of the car I wanted to. The paint and most of the car is original. I examined the engine including the stamp pad. The pad had broach marks, the stamped numbers and letters I have
never observed while judging any generation. I didn't have a camera so pictures were out. The pad was stamped 4N 0546.
The detective in me kicked in. I interviewed the lady and she told me she was the second owner. The original owner drove the
car for a short time when the engine seized up. While under new car warranty the dealer kept the car a gave another car to the original corvette's owner as a permanent replacement. The present owner is very sharp and displayed a bound note book
with all of the history related to the above activity of the car. The owner stated that she has always had a desire to have the
car judged by NCRS. She presented the car for judging by the Chevrolet owners club of America, which resulted in some judge
telling her that the engine is not original and therefore the points for the complete engine would be deducted. She told me she
figured that was the end and she had no interest in any other organization telling her the car was not original, she knew better and had the documents to prove it. I convinced her that I would help her in this regard. The is the beginning of this tale and a friendship of a very gracious lady. The paperwork she has, shows a replacement engine was installed in the car, under factory authorization, kept by the dealer then sold to the present owner sometime later. This car is not a barn find, and it is beautiful in every respect, and the present owner never drives over 30/40 miles when a car show is around. I am starting with the stamp pad numbers and letter to include the dealer paperwork dated in 1964. You might ask if the casting date and number was visible. The answer is no, too dark and covered by the radio shield. I am looking forward to possibly uncovering a jewel in the jungle.

[Michael W.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

It's always interesting meeting a long time owner with an unrestored car, particularly when they wish to share the history of the car and the adventures they've been through.

I'm not sure I follow the goal of having this car judged if the owner objects to being told that the engine is not the original. Having paperwork documenting that the first engine was replaced under warranty by the selling dealer is interesting, but does not count for anything in Flight Judging. Have I misunderstood your message?

[Ed H.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Mike, due to my long diatribe about the history I feel I missed the point. I am asking
if any member can I/D the numbers and letter stamped on the block. I will read the manuals
both the TJM and the Judges reference manual more closely. I need to tell the owner one
way or the other, if the factory honors a warranty for an engine that was defective from the factory, delivers
a replacement engine that has a stamping on the pad. The original dealer replaced the
engine due to a factory defect. Does that change the status of the engine stamp pad. I will be examining
the casting number and date, that may change things. I wll also examine all of the documents related to the
my investigation. If anyone else can I/D the numbers and letter on the stamp pad it would help a lot. The stamp
pad indicated 4 N0546.

[Joe R.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Ed,

If the engine is not original to the car as installed at the factory she would loose the points only assigned to the engine stamping provided the date and block was correct.
If the original engine was given to the original owner it might be worth finding him or her. Fat chance but worth a shot! I once found the original engine even after it was stolen.

JR

[Ed H.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Joe, the original engine was removed and sent back to Flint for R&D. The dealer removed the engine and at the request of the factory
sent it back to Flint. After the factory found the problem and advised they were sending the dealer a replacement engine. That is what
the question is. If the factory honored a warranty problem I believe complete documentation to prove a 53 year old question would metagate
the outstanding question. Does NCRS disallow a situation like this. The Judges reference manual indicates that it will be up to the field
judges and the team leader to base an opinion on validation of the documentation at the time the vehicle is placed on the judging field.
There is no reference that an owner may apply for a determination prior to registering the car at any NCRS judging venue. That is what I
am attempting to accomplish on behalf of a very old lady who ask me to help her. In the true spirit of our organization that is what I am attempting.

[Michael W.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Joe, the original engine was removed and sent back to Flint for R&D. The dealer removed the engine and at the request of the factorysent it back to Flint. After the factory found the problem and advised they were sending the dealer a replacement engine. That is what the question is. If the factory honored a warranty problem I believe complete documentation to prove a 53 year old question would metagate the outstanding question. Does NCRS disallow a situation like this.

I'm afraid that I've never heard of an instance where such a replacement engine would not take a deduct. I also cannot think of a reason why not taking a deduct would be fair to the owners of cars that still had the original engines vs. a replacement.

The engine story makes the car special in my mind. I'd enjoy the car as-is. Please encourage the owner to bring the car out to allow fellow enthusiasts to enjoy it too.

[Joe R.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Joe, the original engine was removed and sent back to Flint for R&D. The dealer removed the engine and at the request of the factory
sent it back to Flint. After the factory found the problem and advised they were sending the dealer a replacement engine. That is what
the question is. If the factory honored a warranty problem I believe complete documentation to prove a 53 year old question would metagate
the outstanding question. Does NCRS disallow a situation like this. The Judges reference manual indicates that it will be up to the field
judges and the team leader to base an opinion on validation of the documentation at the time the vehicle is placed on the judging field.
There is no reference that an owner may apply for a determination prior to registering the car at any NCRS judging venue. That is what I
am attempting to accomplish on behalf of a very old lady who ask me to help her. In the true spirit of our organization that is what I am attempting.

Ed,

You might present this information to the 63-64 Team Leader. I'm sure with all his experience he will want to hear this story. If you can get this story past Carlton I'll vote for a Top Flight award for you.

JR

[Terry M.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Ed,

You might present this information to the 63-64 Team Leader. I'm sure with all his experience he will want to hear this story. If you can get this story past Carlton I'll vote for a Top Flight award for you.

JR

Joe your last comment made me LoL even before my morning tea. I am with you and would vote a Top Flight for Ed if he is successful. As John Ballard has said so often: "You can't make this stuff up."

This board is so entertaining.

[Michael J.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Joe your last comment made me LoL even before my morning tea. I am with you and would vote a Top Flight for Ed if he is successful. As John Ballard has said so often: "You can't make this stuff up."

This board is so entertaining.

+1, priceless indeed. But seriously Ed, according to my Lime Book, the "N" was used on late '50s and early '60s 283 2 barrel truck engines. Maybe that is what it is?

[Ed H.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Mike, the plot thickens, if the factory sent the dealer a truck 283, low comp ratio, different cam etc they got away with a smoke and mirrors
deal. I received a call from the ladies step son. He is going to a storage facility, bring back all of the documents and I will examine them
for as much real info that I can. I am going to the owners home with flashlight and the TJM for 1964. This is like a movie mystery or a case I
investigated in my prior life. This is going to be fun.

[Rick A.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

Ed,

Don't have TJM in front of me, but first meed to make sure it is a CORRECT block for 1963/64, i.e. 870. Once that is established, then check to make sure what the build date if on the block; Third, then check the build date of the car itself on the TRIM tag and verify the VIN tag matches the VIN derivative on Trim tag. Once you have done all of that "upfront" detecting, then look at the pad and make sure broach marks are evident. If ALL of the above appear to be true - then, believe the car would lose points for VIN derivative missing; build date information missing - think deduct would be something like 63 points or something along those lines. And, then of course there could be some condition points on stamp pad itself. And, again NO fine 1963/64 TJM in front of me - just my $.02 centavos input.

[Bob R.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

The best thing to do is ask Carlton for a response on the judging of the engine but the flight judging rules are pretty clear. The engine is worth 350 points and if the casting number is wrong deduct 350 if correct you look at the casting date if correct you move on to the assembly stamping if not deduct 175 points. Assembly stamping if correct move on to vin derivative if wrong deduct 25 points. Vin derivative if wrong deduct 25 points and stamp pad surface is worth 38 points. If you have a correct casting number and correct casting date but the rest of the pad is incorrect you would lose 75 points. The car could still make a top flight especially if most of it is correct.

[Mike M.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

you'd loose 88 points, not 75, if the entire pad is incorrect. mike

[Bob R.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

You are correct Mike 88 points bad math on my part

[Gene M.]

Re: 85 year old lady with awsome 64 coupe w/ strange stam pad

It makes no difference what story is presented. The fact remains this is not the engine the car was born with. If it was a re-stamper with numbers typical and not detectable deviation from TFP is could possibly pass as real or just as typical. Understand it could also be detected by not having production anomalies characteristic of cars in that build time and receive deductions. But said stamping in fact being not TFP makes it easy. Did not "she" admit the engine was replaced? When facts are presented to answer questionability ..... case solved, next case.