Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

No need for Standard Deduction - if the line item is a FULL DEDUCTION as Harry indicated pretty straight forward - you lose all the points for that line.

Rick, for five line items in Exterior and Chassis, I agree with you that the choice is easy, i.e., full deduct. But how would you deal with these specific items:

Exterior: Fiberglass and component fit
65 Originality Points
55 Condition points


Chassis: Splash shields and weatherstripping
3 Originality points
3 Condition points


Chassis: Heat shields, ground straps & exhaust tips 5 out of 5 5 out of 5
Chassis: Splash shields and weatherstripping
17 Originality points
17 Condition points


Operations
Exhaust: tone, leakage, noise
25 points

Gary

[Rick A.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Are splash shields there or not - typically not in the configuration you see for an under-car exhaust, so I believe FULL DEDUCT, as not there so no Condition points; same with the other Chassis parts missing.

OPERATIONS there is a DISTINCT sound that side pipes vs under car exhaust exhibit and an experienced judge should know the difference, so again should be a FULL deduct. We are attempting to make sure the owner understands what the problem is, aren't we?

Just resurrected an old post by our esteemed Bill Clupper from about 5 years ago in which he attempted to describe just how many points would be lost looking at the entire car.

Manual Ref Deviation Points Deduction OR Condition
OPS-Line 19 Sound Quality 25

Chassis - Eng Comp-Line 3 Lacking w/s and Staples 2 2

Exh Syst-12 full on all items 20 20

Body

FG Fit-3 Lack of doglegs for rocker moulding attachment and added cutout on the rear wheel inner fender. Could also cite lack of metal rocker cover supports here. Also missing holes for outlets and the associated reinforcements on rear panel closeout 18 13

Rocker Mldgs & Covers-Line 16 Parts used with SP do not resemble the ones delivered on the car 15 15

Rear Lisc. Area- Line 17 Missing Bezels 4 4

Summary
84 54

138 total from above. Let me know if I missed something.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Are splash shields there or not - typically not in the configuration you see for an under-car exhaust, so I believe FULL DEDUCT, as not there so no Condition points; same with the other Chassis parts missing.

Rick,

On the car I judged most recently, the splash shields were there. Just no weatherstripping and no staples. So, maybe a total of 4 points off out of 6 (3 orig; 3 cond), but originally I was thinking a total of 2 points deduct, since the splash shields are the big items.

Most of your numbers are close to the ones in my very first posting on this thread. But I envisioned a much lower deduct for fiberglass fit and components. Your deduct for that line item is 31, whereas I was thinking more like 6 to 8. As you say the missing doglegs, added cutout at rear wheels, and missing outlets in rear valance. I didn't consider the missing rocker brackets, but I agree that should be taken into account somewhere. But even adding something in for the rocker panel brackets, I think we differ by at least 20 points.

Gary

[Rick A.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Gary - I look at worst case with the STD deduct, so very possible we are that far apart. Also, remember if you do NOT get at least 10% Originality you do NOT get any Condition points. Many judges tend to forget this part of the equation. And, if something is NOT there how can you give someone Condition points which I have seen happen at a recent Chapter event. Just saying...........

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Gary - I look at worst case with the STD deduct, so very possible we are that far apart. Also, remember if you do NOT get at least 10% Originality you do NOT get any Condition points. Many judges tend to forget this part of the equation. And, if something is NOT there how can you give someone Condition points which I have seen happen at a recent Chapter event. Just saying...........

Rick,

I hear what you're saying. I don't think I messed up with regard to needing 10% to get condition points, so that's not the issue. I think we just have a basic difference of opinion about the magnitude of deducts for the fiberglass line item. I do think a spread of 20 points for the side-pipe overall score is enough to elevate the issue for consideration of a standard deduct that would probably simplify and speed up the judging process, as well as making the score more consistent from event to event.

In any case, I think this thread has been as interesting as I hoped it would. If not raising a few new questions. That's often the outcome of a challenging research problem.

Gary

[Rick A.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Gary - problem with figuring out fiberglass fit and finish, etc. has always been a problem in our hobby. For instance, a car has a luggage rack and is NOT supposed to, how many points do you take off? Well, where the points would be deducted is the fact there are now FOUR holes in the fiberglass that normally would not be there. Many folks want to take more or less points depending on their reference point. In my view it is pretty apparent. So, you have an ORIGINALITY problem using the CDCIF to base your point deduction. Again, have not had a JUDGING SCHOOL in some time so more "junior judges" get the insight and at the Chapter level don't think enough education is taking place. RANT OFF

[Don H.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

My two cents...
an "overall" Std Deduction for added side exhaust would be impractical because not all cars are modified the same. Many keep the weatherstrip on the small splash pans. some get rocker hangers cut off while others just have them pushed back, some keep the front or rear fender fiberglass body pieces in place, many don't get the half moons cut out of rear wheel lower inner fender. It would seem body mods would always have to be assessed on a case by case basis and therefore would be subject to differences of opinion as to deductions just as previous posts illustrate.

add:
My personal feeling regarding below is that owners are entitled to have their cars assessed individually when a modification affects so many different aspects of a car, and can be as varied as we know that it can be in this instance. In the short time I have been judging (and getting judged) I have not detected any problem that needs fixing insofar as judging added side exhaust. Of course this is just my opinion and each member will have his/her own. The only one that really counts is that of the NJC.

I have even seen cars that have both side pipes AND undercar exhaust.

ps, and I speak as an owner of a car with added pipes...

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

My two cents...
an "overall" Std Deduction for added side exhaust would be impractical because not all cars are modified the same. Many keep the weatherstrip on the small splash pans. some get rocker hangers cut off while others just have them pushed back, some keep the front or rear fender fiberglass body pieces in place, many don't get the half moons cut out of rear wheel lower inner fender. It would seem body mods would always have to be assessed on a case by case basis and therefore would be subject to differences of opinion as to deductions just as previous posts illustrate.

Don,

But in some ways all those variations you correctly point out are in some way a good argument for a standard deduct. The message to owners being: add side pipes that are determined not to be original, get a 120 point deduct. Done.

Gary

[Harry S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

I went through the sheets for Mechanical, Operations, Chassis and Exterior. I come up with 145 points as a deduction. One could debate a point here or there on the damage to the fiberglass and paint.

In any case it's a bunch of points. That leaves you only 135 points for other problems if you start at 4510 total.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

I went through the sheets for Mechanical, Operations, Chassis and Exterior. I come up with 145 points as a deduction. One could debate a point here or there on the damage to the fiberglass and paint.

In any case it's a bunch of points. That leaves you only 135 points for other problems if you start at 4510 total.

Harry,

Can you list each deduct by line with points taken for the side exhaust?

Gary

[Harry S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Harry,

Can you list each deduct by line with points taken for the side exhaust?

Gary

Operations, line 19
Chassis, sections, 3, 12
Exterior, sections, 3, 16, 18
Mechanical, section 11

If it's not there all originality and all condition. Holes, paint, etc you can debate.

I put the cutoff rocker brackets in the fiberglass area.

[Don H.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

just curious how Exhaust manifolds Mech Sect 11 were dinged?

[Harry S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

just curious how Exhaust manifolds Mech Sect 11 were dinged?

Heatriser may or may not have been affected.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Operations, line 19
Chassis, sections, 3, 12
Exterior, sections, 3, 16, 18
Mechanical, section 11

If it's not there all originality and all condition. Holes, paint, etc you can debate.

I put the cutoff rocker brackets in the fiberglass area.

Harry,

Very Interesting. For Mechanical, Section 11, the judging sheets list:

11. Exhaust Manifolds and A.I.R.
Manifolds
Bolts, studs, nuts, flanges, locks, washers and heat riser
A.I.R. System - All (if equipped)

Do you which of those items is linked to the side exhaust?

Also, you mentioned section 18 in Exterior, which is:

18. Rear Bumpers
Rear Bumpers
Bumper braces & bolts
Rear valance panel attachment

At the recent judging I participated in that had an added side-exhaust car, I asked the team leader about the lack of exhaust outlet holes in the rear valance, and he said that deduct should not be in Section 18, but rather it should be with the Body Fiberglass and Component Fit, since the rear valance issue in item 18 is the valance panel attachment, not the fiberglass per se.

Gary

[Dave S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Operations, line 19
Chassis, sections, 3, 12
Exterior, sections, 3, 16, 18
Mechanical, section 11

If it's not there all originality and all condition. Holes, paint, etc you can debate.

I put the cutoff rocker brackets in the fiberglass area.

Harry,
You aren't specific on the various parts of each section so I cannot comment properly. If the sections you list are all total deducts then I think you are over deducting by a lot. I will say I think the only full deducts are the exhaust system and the rocker moldings. Until the NJC puts out a decision on OPS I think that one is very subjective. I think your total point deduct is to much but I'd like to see your detail to better comment.