Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Harry,
You aren't specific on the various parts of each section so I cannot comment properly. If the sections you list are all total deducts then I think you are over deducting by a lot. I will say I think the only full deducts are the exhaust system and the rocker moldings. Until the NJC puts out a decision on OPS I think that one is very subjective. I think your total point deduct is to much but I'd like to see your detail to better comment.

Dave,

There might be some double dipping in Harry's list if a deduct was taken in Exterior Section 18, for the lack of exit holes in the valance. That should be included in the fiberglass item. And I don't see why something at the exhaust manifolds would be relevant (Mechanical Section 11) in general, unless I don't understand something (always possible).

Gary

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Dave, thanks.

...I'll assume the car has a radio as a radio delete car gets a different answer.

Harry,

Because of the ground straps you mean?

Gary

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Heatriser may or may not have been affected.

I have to look as a car with real side exhaust or ask someone about that. I don't know that area well enough.

Gary

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

I went through the sheets for Mechanical, Operations, Chassis and Exterior. I come up with 145 points as a deduction....

Harry,

Is there anyway you could scan the 6 or 7 relevant sheets with any side-exhaust-related deducts and e-mail them to me as PDFs?

Thanks,

Gary

[Rick A.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

My thought would be that the deducts would be listed in the appropriate judging guides and each judging team would make the appropriate deductions. Chassis has a few items and exterior has a few items. Interior and Mechanical don't have any that I can think of but maybe I'm not thinking clearly. The OPS question needs to be addressed by the National Judging Chairman and a decision should be made to provide consistency.

Dave - so you are suggesting a STD deduct in each section where points would be deducted for a car showing with side exhaust and should NOT have it - correct? Okay, was thinking an overall deduct and not each section, but understand now.

[Dave S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Dave - so you are suggesting a STD deduct in each section where points would be deducted for a car showing with side exhaust and should NOT have it - correct? Okay, was thinking an overall deduct and not each section, but understand now.

Rick,
Firstly my comments are for mid year cars only. 1969 cars can be faked but with the notches in the birdcage mid years virtually cannot.
If it is determined that a car has non original side pipes then the deducts should be the same for all mid year cars.
Based on the subjectivity in this thread it seems to confirm the argument for standard deducts in the chassis and exterior sections. As you mention NJC Dave Brigham should publish a guideline for Operations judging.
I think we have beat this subject to death. Hopefully Dave B. Will pick up on it.

[Page C.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

This added or deleted options is covered in the Judging Reference Manual. Section 4 # 9 (page 32). The detectable addition OR deletion of any regular production vehicle option subsequent to factory assembly is inconsistent with NCRS Judging Standards and therefore subject to a FULL DEDUCTION on originality and condition. Examples: include side-mounted exhaust as well as many others stated in the section. If you are taking full deductions for effected areas, I don't see how you can decided to take full deductions on some items and revert to CDCIF for others that you feel are to severe. From following this topic it appears that some do not want to take a full deduction on the body for the missing fiberglass on the front fenders, rear inter fenders, rear valance panel, holes in body in wrong locations, rocker molding brackets missing or cut off, and revert back to CDCIF for this deduct. I don't think you can jump from the Standard Deduction Judging Reference Manual to CDCIF for one of the effected areas that you feel is too severe of a deduction.
If you feel it too severe, you probably will not like 100% deduct on body paint for a pin stripe among other things in that section.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Page,

If by a full deduction you're suggesting that the full 120 points (65 originality, 55 condition) should be taken in the Body Fiberglass and Component Fit line item, then I think something is wrong with the judging reference paradigm. Or am I completely mis-interpreting your post?

Gary

[Dave S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

This added or deleted options is covered in the Judging Reference Manual. Section 4 # 9 (page 32). The detectable addition OR deletion of any regular production vehicle option subsequent to factory assembly is inconsistent with NCRS Judging Standards and therefore subject to a FULL DEDUCTION on originality and condition. Examples: include side-mounted exhaust as well as many others stated in the section. If you are taking full deductions for effected areas, I don't see how you can decided to take full deductions on some items and revert to CDCIF for others that you feel are to severe. From following this topic it appears that some do not want to take a full deduction on the body for the missing fiberglass on the front fenders, rear inter fenders, rear valance panel, holes in body in wrong locations, rocker molding brackets missing or cut off, and revert back to CDCIF for this deduct. I don't think you can jump from the Standard Deduction Judging Reference Manual to CDCIF for one of the effected areas that you feel is too severe of a deduction.
If you feel it too severe, you probably will not like 100% deduct on body paint for a pin stripe among other things in that section.

Page,
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I just can't imagine taking full deducts missing fiberglass, hanger alterations on the birdcage etc. That does not seem to be in the spirit of the judging program and how would the Team Leaders handle that. However the wording in the Judging Reference Manual suggests that it be done that way.
The pin stripe example is an easy one as it is clearly one item with one deduct.
As I mentioned earlier we need the NJC to provide some clarification on this one item.

[Tracy C.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

This added or deleted options is covered in the Judging Reference Manual. Section 4 # 9 (page 32). The detectable addition OR deletion of any regular production vehicle option subsequent to factory assembly is inconsistent with NCRS Judging Standards and therefore subject to a FULL DEDUCTION on originality and condition. ......... I don't think you can jump from the Standard Deduction Judging Reference Manual to CDCIF for one of the effected areas that you feel is too severe of a deduction......

Page,

My understanding of the full deduct guidance for added side pipes is that the deduction would apply to the things that were replaced by the added option. (rocker moldings, undercar exhaust, exhaust bezels etc..) I do not believe the intent is to deduct the entirety of the body fiberglass line because of missing tabs on the louver panels and here is why..

If the owner of a previously judged fake side pipe car, removed the side pipes and brought the car back for judging with under car exhaust, no rocker panels and missing tabs on the front fenders, would you still want to deduct 100% for body fiberglass? I think not. We would deduct 100% for the missing rocker panels and some nominal percentage of body fiberglass for the missing tabs.

I'm not sure we will get any traction for a flat rate standard deduction for added sidepipes. I think the rules as written are adequate. We need to be better educated on how to apply them.

tc

[Dave S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Page,

My understanding of the full deduct guidance for added side pipes is that the deduction would apply to the things that were replaced by the added option. (rocker moldings, undercar exhaust, exhaust bezels etc..) I do not believe the intent is to deduct the entirety of the body fiberglass line because of missing tabs on the louver panels and here is why..

If the owner of a previously judged fake side pipe car, removed the side pipes and brought the car back for judging with under car exhaust, no rocker panels and missing tabs on the front fenders, would you still want to deduct 100% for body fiberglass? I think not. We would deduct 100% for the missing rocker panels and some nominal percentage of body fiberglass for the missing tabs.

I'm not sure we will get any traction for a flat rate standard deduction for added sidepipes. I think the rules as written are adequate. We need to be better educated on how to apply them.

tc

Tracy,
your points are well taken and make perfect sense to me.
We have some well educated people posting here and there are several differences of opinion on how to approach this. How do we get the word out to the judging community on how to judge side pipes.? That seems like a tall task but at a minimum the Team Leaders should be informed.

[Don H.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

friends
I have alerted Mr. Brigham to this thread. If there needs to be some discussion with the 65-67 team leaders I'm sure that he will initiate that discussion. It will filter down to the chapter judging chairs as necessary. Might also be a topic of discussion at the next Judging Retreat.

[Page C.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

To Tracy point on the car being brought back to be judge again with the side exhaust removed and the under car exhaust reinstalled, the car now is NOT under the Add/Delete with Full Deductions section in the JRM and would be judged with the missing pieces under CDCIF.

[Rick A.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

This added or deleted options is covered in the Judging Reference Manual. Section 4 # 9 (page 32). The detectable addition OR deletion of any regular production vehicle option subsequent to factory assembly is inconsistent with NCRS Judging Standards and therefore subject to a FULL DEDUCTION on originality and condition. Examples: include side-mounted exhaust as well as many others stated in the section. If you are taking full deductions for effected areas, I don't see how you can decided to take full deductions on some items and revert to CDCIF for others that you feel are to severe. From following this topic it appears that some do not want to take a full deduction on the body for the missing fiberglass on the front fenders, rear inter fenders, rear valance panel, holes in body in wrong locations, rocker molding brackets missing or cut off, and revert back to CDCIF for this deduct. I don't think you can jump from the Standard Deduction Judging Reference Manual to CDCIF for one of the effected areas that you feel is too severe of a deduction.
If you feel it too severe, you probably will not like 100% deduct on body paint for a pin stripe among other things in that section.

Good response, Page!

[Loren L.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Without bothering to read any of the responses and evaluate them, why don't you just contact the Team Leader for the car year you are concerned with and not waste any of your time?