Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

[Gary B.]

I know this issue is discussed in the DB archives, but I don't find a detailed list of the deducts for a C2 with non-original side exhaust. I'd like to get opinions on the following and to fill in the missing deductions indicated by by the qty=7 "?". I think several of the ? would be 0 or maybe a 1, and one might be 25, but I've love to hear what others think. (I'm sorry the column formatting below was lost.)

Exterior Originality Condition
Rocker Moldings or Covers 15 out of 15 15 out of 15
Rear License Area: Exhaust Bezels 4 out of 4 4 out of 4
Fiberglass and component fit
Missing holes in rear valance &
Missing fiberglass at front of rocker area ? out of 65 ? out of 55

Chassis Originality Condition
Splash shields and weatherstripping ? out of 3 ? out of 3
Exhaust pipes & Mufflers 10 out of 10 10 out of 10
Mounting, Hangers & Clamps 5 out of 5 5 out of 5
Heat shields, ground straps & exhaust tips 5 out of 5 5 out of 5
Underbody fiberglass & attaching reinforcements ? out of 17 ? out of 17

Operations
Exhaust: tone, leakage, noise ? point deduct out of 25

Am I missing any item or category? Would the Ops deduct be all 25 pts?

Thanks,

Gary

[Steve B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

I believe the total loss is around 100 total points. Since OPs are done before flight judging, I don't see how there would be a deduct at that time.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Steve,

To the best of my knowledge, OPS is part of flight judging, and can happen after other categories have been judged.

How exactly, line item by line item, do you get to a 100 point deduct without a 25 point deduct from OPS?

Gary

[Steve B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Gary,
The 100 point number was a guess on my part and remember hearing that number from other discussions on this subject. As for OPS, I understand that its part of Flight judging but since that's done first I assumed that they would not deduct for non original side exhaust since they are not looking at the birdcage at that time. Now if that owner admits it before hand then that would be a possibility I suppose.
Steve

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Steve,

I've also heard many estimates of the points deduct before, ranging from 75 to 125, but my goal here is to nail down some exact numbers, rather than guesses.

Regarding the order of judging, at a recent chapter meet with 3 C2s to judge and not enough time to wait for OPS to complete all cars, exterior and chassis started on cars before OPS. OPS was actually done last, so the chassis and exterior team had already made the determination of non-original side exhaust, which led to total deducts in several categories, requiring the team leader sign-off. A that point it's was clear that the OPS team should know about the exhaust issue for their OPS judging. My understanding is the 3 teams (chassis, exterior, and OPS) are supposed to confer when this situation comes up, so that a car doesn't get a deduct in one category that is missed or inconsistent with what is done in another category.

Gary

[Mike D.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

I believe the number is 88 points total taken from exterior and chassis section.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

I believe the number is 88 points total taken from exterior and chassis section.

Mike,

Honestly, I don't see how to get to 88 points just from exterior and chassis deducts. Can you show me how to get to 88, line item by line item in exterior and chassis? Let's pretend I'm slow (OK, maybe it's not pretending) and please someone show me item by item.

Gary

[Edward S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

In all the years I have been a member, all the judging my cars have gone through - won regular top flights up to and including Duntov, Triple Crown etc. never remember twice getting the same score. All judges score different on the same car. So how can anyone come up with a exact score. OPS at Nationals most of the time is done after you sign in ( the day before regular judging starts ). If you want to throw Chapters in with other types of judging shows forget about coming up with the same scores. Good luck.

[Don H.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

We had this exact situation one week ago at our Chapter Meet. I am looking at the judging sheets (getting ready to mail to owner) and will try to list the deducts:

OPs - none
Interior - none
Exterior - 3. Fiberglass & component fit - 7 for originality but had 2 other items listed so it was not all for side pipes
16. Rocker Moldings, total deduct - 15, 15
17. Rear License Area, Exhaust Bezels, total deduct - 4, 4
Mechanical - none
Chassis - 12. Exhaust System, total deduct, 3 lines - 10, 10; 5, 5; 5, 5

I think this is all but I went through them very quickly. Each judging team had at least one master judge and there were four 400+ point judges there. As Ed stated, at most Regionals and National, ops is done before going inside and before any other judging so I do not see how you would get any ops deducts. Also different judges would probably take different amounts at different meets. Don H.

[Mike D.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Printing out the judging sheets from the NCRS website, it shows 40 points for the exhaust system. 6 points for the splash shield and weatherstripping.30 for rocker moldings rocker moldings, 4 for lower valance, and the rest on body fiberglass component and fit. Should be 88 points total. There was a black 1965 396 coupe that took the deductions for aftermarket pipes but was a nice car at Tucson regional.

[Gary B.]

[Don H.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Gary,
I think there are differing views on ops. I know one National Team Leader that says only five point increments for deducts in operations.
Don H.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Gary,
I think there are differing views on ops. I know one National Team Leader that says only five point increments for deducts in operations.
Don H.

Don,

Then that would allow for a 15 point deduct for OPS? If so, the total would be 99. Also, a memorable number.

Gary

[Wayne W.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2


It does leak, about half way back, and on both sides. A real bad leak in my book.

The problem has always been that a side exhaust change spans the judging catagories of exterior, mechanical, and ops. So who makes the initial call, and then how is it handled. Ops has no real way of knowing. Exterior has no real knowledge if the change is done right, but there are things that he might catch if not. Mechanical, does the most looking under the car, and is most likely to make the catch, but any of them could. Then it is necessary to go back on previous items and readjust. I think that if there is a call and it is confirmed, there should be a standard deduction period, and eliminate the inconsistency.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Wayne,

I think you mean chassis instead of mechanical; no part of mechanical judging deals with side exhaust. But I think your final point is an excellent one, i.e., a standard deduct would greatly improve consistency. That makes a lot of sense to me.

If I remember to bring up the issue, at my next chapter meeting I'll ask some of the more experienced judges in my chapter for their view on the OPS deduct. I can see an argument for a full 25 point deduct, raising the grand total to 109 points deducted.

So anywhere from 84 points with no OPS deduct, up to 109 with full OPS deduct. That range of possibilities is also an argument in support of a standard deduct.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Gary