Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

[Page C.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

The fact that if the side exhaust system has been determined to be added is the key. It is covered under the Judging Reference Manual. Section 4 #9 "Added or Deleted Options" and is therefore subject to a full deduction. This means a full deduction on all areas affected including operations. If this was not detected by one of the judging teams, the judging chairman or team leader would review the sheets of each already judged sections and adjust the score to reflect the proper deduction and inform the other teams that are affected.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Page,

That description is not totally clear to me. What is meant by "a full deduction on all areas affected". Under Exterior, fiberglass is affected, but it would be ridiculous to deduct all 65 points for fiberglass. I don't see the clarity in such a statement, apart perhaps from OPS and the exhaust tone, leakage, & noise assessment.

Again, I think the idea of a full deduct based on the Judging Reference Guide statement would be well served by a standard deduct.

Gary

[Wayne W.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Wayne,

I think you mean chassis instead of mechanical; no part of mechanical judging deals with side exhaust. But I think your final point is an excellent one, i.e., a standard deduct would greatly improve consistency. That makes a lot of sense to me.

If I remember to bring up the issue, at my next chapter meeting I'll ask some of the more experienced judges in my chapter for their view on the OPS deduct. I can see an argument for a full 25 point deduct, raising the grand total to 109 points deducted.

So anywhere from 84 points with no OPS deduct, up to 109 with full OPS deduct. That range of possibilities is also an argument in support of a standard deduct.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Gary

Yes, Chassis. Its been so long since I judged I forgot what they called it.

The way I see it, if a car is presented with non original side exhaust, and it is verified by the judging team to be the case, there should be a standard deduct because serious items span so many judging catagories. The car should be viewed as sitting on the field without any exhaust and bracketry, without rocker trim, without rear exhaust panel, bezels etc., and it would presented with body changes, damage if you will, of cut offs, drill holes etc. and other minor items.

Someone should determine just what all of that means and come up with a standard deduction. Its is not fair to the owner or the judges to be subjected to those determinations on the field, not to mention the time it takes to get everyone together and come to a consensus. The judging process takes way too much time already. Thats why I go out and play golf while y`all are judging.

[Philip A.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

The fact that if the side exhaust system has been determined to be added is the key. It is covered under the Judging Reference Manual. Section 4 #9 "Added or Deleted Options" and is therefore subject to a full deduction. This means a full deduction on all areas affected including operations. If this was not detected by one of the judging teams, the judging chairman or team leader would review the sheets of each already judged sections and adjust the score to reflect the proper deduction and inform the other teams that are affected.

This raises an interesting point from some time ago. I understood the detection of added side exhaust got the car "branded" counterfeit and the car could not be judged again in the future until it was corrected.

[Tracy C.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

This raises an interesting point from some time ago. I understood the detection of added side exhaust got the car "branded" counterfeit and the car could not be judged again in the future until it was corrected.

Tampering with a cars "identifier" characteristics like Trim tags, VIN tags or altering stamped or cast numbers on a cylinder case to make it appear as something it did not come from the factory as will get a car branded counterfeit.

In this case, merely adding side exhaust is just an added option and subject to a full deduct as described in previous posts.

However,

If there were identifying codes on a trim tag that specified side exhaust, and the trim tag was also changed to make the car appear as a side pipe coded car, then the car would be branded counterfeit.

tc

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Wayne,

I'm with you 100%. There ought to be a way to propose the idea of a standard deduct to the powers that be.

Gary

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

This raises an interesting point from some time ago. I understood the detection of added side exhaust got the car "branded" counterfeit and the car could not be judged again in the future until it was corrected.

Phillip,

As Tracy points out, such branding and the inability to be judged based on added side exhaust is not correct.

Gary

[Harry S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

A few weeks back Dave Strickland started a post about judging a 66 during a Judging Class. The car was judged in 1992 and 2015. Both times the side pipes were called. We did spend time going over the sheet. All teams had deductions except interior. As I recall the total was close to 200 pints in all. Many of the posts in this thread mention the areas hit. I would guess as to how you apply CDCIF would get you a different number to deduct.

When you take a full deduct because the part is missing all the condition points go with it.

[Gary B.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

A few weeks back Dave Strickland started a post about judging a 66 during a Judging Class. The car was judged in 1992 and 2015. Both times the side pipes were called. We did spend time going over the sheet. All teams had deductions except interior. As I recall the total was close to 200 pints in all. Many of the posts in this thread mention the areas hit. I would guess as to how you apply CDCIF would get you a different number to deduct.

When you take a full deduct because the part is missing all the condition points go with it.

Harry,

I've gone back to the posting started by Dave Strickland and the only mention I can find about the added side exhaust and the deduct for such is:

"2. In 1993 the deducts were unclear about the sidepipes and somehow 40 points were deducted for what were add on sidepipes. This time the proper deductions were taken resulting in an 80 +/- point loss."

I don't see anything in the threads that are part of Dave's posting that talks about a 200-point deduct, nor do I see anything that mentions any side-exhaust related deduct by the Mechanical team. So in my reading of things, no deducts occur for mechanical or interior.

Am I missing something in the threads following Dave's initial posting that you specifically saw about side exhaust deducts? I thought we were getting close to understanding the range of deducts to be between 84 and 109 points, so a 200 point deduct doesn't make sense to me.

Gary

[Rick A.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

No need for Standard Deduction - if the line item is a FULL DEDUCTION as Harry indicated pretty straight forward - you lose all the points for that line.

[Dave S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

A few weeks back Dave Strickland started a post about judging a 66 during a Judging Class. The car was judged in 1992 and 2015. Both times the side pipes were called. We did spend time going over the sheet. All teams had deductions except interior. As I recall the total was close to 200 pints in all. Many of the posts in this thread mention the areas hit. I would guess as to how you apply CDCIF would get you a different number to deduct.

When you take a full deduct because the part is missing all the condition points go with it.

Harry,
I recall that the total taken was around 78 points at our school. I don't think we took deducts for the fiberglass damage at the rocker panels or the damage to the frame for missing/cut hangers on the frame for the rocker panels. As you know we did not address OPS at all. Maybe 88 points plus OPS is more correct. I agree with the suggestion of a standard deduct as it is easy to miss things. Saves time, error and subjectivity.

[Harry S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Harry,
I recall that the total taken was around 78 points at our school. I don't think we took deducts for the fiberglass damage at the rocker panels or the damage to the frame for missing/cut hangers on the frame for the rocker panels. As you know we did not address OPS at all. Maybe 88 points plus OPS is more correct. I agree with the suggestion of a standard deduct as it is easy to miss things. Saves time, error and subjectivity.

Dave, thanks.

I'll grab some judging sheets and run through them. I'll assume the car has a radio as a radio delete car gets a different answer.

[Rick A.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Dave - where does the STD Deduct apply then? You are looking at CHASSIS, EXTERIOR, OPS, points deductions that SHOULD be taken. Not an easy determination like glass, head lamps, or tires.

[Wayne W.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Bout as well delete the radio, you can't here it anyway.

[Dave S.]

Re: Deducts for non-original side exhaust on a C2

Dave - where does the STD Deduct apply then? You are looking at CHASSIS, EXTERIOR, OPS, points deductions that SHOULD be taken. Not an easy determination like glass, head lamps, or tires.

My thought would be that the deducts would be listed in the appropriate judging guides and each judging team would make the appropriate deductions. Chassis has a few items and exterior has a few items. Interior and Mechanical don't have any that I can think of but maybe I'm not thinking clearly. The OPS question needs to be addressed by the National Judging Chairman and a decision should be made to provide consistency.