1967 Body Lift for Chassis & Frame Restoration

[Gene M.]

Re: Water Pump Rebuild Needed

Rich,
It's been a long time since I rebuilt a water pump. Is the drawn stainless sheet metal cup bigger on the BB pump compared to the SB pump? Also was there a configuration that the ceramic sealed against the face of the cast impeller machined face? Like I say it's been awhile and I could be all wet. Again, a very well presented tech article you shared.

[Richard M.]

Re: Water Pump Rebuild Needed

Rich,
It's been a long time since I rebuilt a water pump. Is the drawn stainless sheet metal cup bigger on the BB pump compared to the SB pump? Also was there a configuration that the ceramic sealed against the face of the cast impeller machined face? Like I say it's been awhile and I could be all wet. Again, a very well presented tech article you shared.

Gene,

Yes the seal metal cup which is driven into the pump housing is noticeably bigger. I don't have the measurements but the BB part is about 1 1/4" OD. I have both and will take some measurements for reference.

All original pumps had the configuration you mentioned, until now when being forced to use the new rebuild kits.

Here's a example of the original type/older type seal installation.

Here is a SB pump readied for reassembly.
DSCN1616.jpgDSCN1617.jpg

The original type ceramic portion face is shown here on the left 2 photos. Below that is a coil spring fixed into the SS cup. The last photo shows the separate ring and it's (removable) rubber sleeve already installed. It fits in the ID of the ring and on the backside. The ID of the rubber sleeve fits over the bearing shaft to seal fluid from entering the bearing, along with the seal faces themselves to do the same.
PB060175.jpgPB060187.jpgPB060176.jpg

Here is the face of the front of the impeller. The backside of the ring which has the full face rubber seal on it's side is what contacts the flat machined surface of the impeller. The spring in the mating ceramic seal/housing assembly pushes on the seal face and ring and compresses the rubber on the back of the ring against the impeller face to seal the fluid away from the bearing. If this seal area leaks, the fluid will weep out of the hole in the pump housing snout, shown in right photo. There are 2 weep holes, one on top(shown) and one 180* opposite on bottom(not shown).
PB060177.jpgPB060182.jpg

The bearing/shaft assembly is shown here.The seal end has the groove in the shaft. The other end is the drive end for the fan hub. The bearing is driven into the pump housing snout the same way as the BB pump, using a deep socket tool to contact the outer edge of the bearing.
PB060178.jpg

Then the ceramic seal cup is installed into the pump over the shaft. Then the steel ring is pushed (easily by fingers) onto the shaft, face to ceramic, rubber side facing outward. The impeller is then hydraulic pressed onto the shaft and it's face will push against the backside of the rubber sleeved and backed steel ring, also while checking the impeller blades to pump housing surface to spec.


Here is the new type replacement seal assembly. SB version shown.
PB060188.jpgPB060189.jpgPB060190.jpg

The steel ring is permanently fixed to the ceramic cup/assembly. There is rubber on the backside and on the inside of the ring, but the stainless steel sleeve/bushing covers the rubber. This sleeve is a precision fit to the new shaft and must be pressed or driven onto the shaft. This is the ONLY seal method against fluid entering the bearing, of course along with the seal faces themselves. This method replaces the old ring-against-the-impeller-face method. The new shafts are about 0.005" smaller than originals, so you cannot interchange old seals and impellers and hubs. This is described in detail with measurements in the attached document in my previous post.

In my mind this new arrangement would be ideal if there was no difference in the shaft diameters between the old & new kits. It would allow us to continue to use old cast iron impellers and fan hubs, if is reusable condition. Most new kits include stamped steel impellers and marginal quality hubs, and these are not designed for the older type seal rings.

I have found a supplier which does in fact have cast iron impellers in their kits with the newer type seal assemblies. I've acquired several of those to keep close for those "special" tasks.

Rich

[Gene M.]

Re: Water Pump Rebuild Needed

I will look tomorrow, I think I still have a SB seal kit from Web Seal that is the original design (seal against the impeller) and size. If I can find them I'll post the part number.

The system with a rubber seal against the impeller should have a longer life than the original configuration just from a wear stand point rather than running on the cast iron.

[Richard M.]

Re: Water Pump Rebuild Needed

I will look tomorrow, I think I still have a SB seal kit from Web Seal that is the original design (seal against the impeller) and size. If I can find them I'll post the part number.

The system with a rubber seal against the impeller should have a longer life than the original configuration just from a wear stand point rather than running on the cast iron.

For reference, I found a old type seal with a bearing and impeller. It's from a Jag V12 but same principle whereas the rubber seal presses against the impeller.

PB150065.jpgPB150068.jpgPB150070.jpgPB150071.jpgPB150072.jpgPB150073.jpgPB150074.jpgPB150075.jpgPB150076.jpgPB150077.jpgPB150078.jpgPB150079.jpg

These are 2 new Small Block GM kits I bought some time ago. The use the cast iron impeller and good quality hub, however the seal is the new type and must be used with the new bearing/shaft. The OD of the seal cup is 1.440". The BB size is larger than this so I erred in my earlier post and will correct it. I don't have a BB seal here to measure....any longer as it's now in the pump.
PB150066.jpgPB150067.jpg

Here is a new type seal. It was my first one that I encountered so I did a "destructive test" to understand it better. Here are the pieces disassembled for a better understanding as to their construction.
PB150080.jpgPB150081.jpgPB150082.jpgPB150083.jpgPB150084.jpgPB150085.jpgPB150086.jpg

I just decided to repair it. It was very simple as the SS sleeve which normally is swedged to hold it in place was easily "re-swedged" using some simple tools.
PB150088.jpgPB150089.jpgPB150090.jpgPB150091.jpgPB150092.jpgPB150093.jpgPB150094.jpgPB150095.jpg

Reflecting on this semi-off topic information, I probably should have started a new thread when i went off-topi and placed a link in this thread to it for the sake of future interest in Small Block pump kits. But the same general data applies to Big Block pumps and this information can be interpreted for those applications as well. Albeit different sizes of seals, shafts and impellers.

Rich

[Gene M.]

Re: Water Pump Rebuild Needed

Rich,
The vanes on the Jag V12 impeller are interesting configuration...... thank you.

[Richard M.]

Re: Water Pump Rebuild Needed

Rich,
The vanes on the Jag V12 impeller are interesting configuration...... thank you.

Yes, The whole V12 engine is interesting. Amazing engineering, however so very over-complicated. I had quite a challenge on that rebuild.

[Richard M.]

Re: Water Pump Rebuild Needed

Alternator Rebuild:

PB200001.jpg

Ready to assemble, but a question.....

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...329#post760329

[Richard M.]

Re: F41 HD Rear Shocks and replated Strut/Shock Mounts

When I reassembled the chassis some time ago it was decided to not acquire the F41 HD rear shocks so I got Delco stock replacements and just peeled the "Made in Mexico" Blue Delco labels off and repainted them from black to gray.

We later decided differently. I found and acquired a nice set of dated correct F41 rear shocks. We had the "3329265-66" shock mounts, but after getting the F41 HD shocks I wanted to get my "silver cad coating"(i.e. paint) off of the brackets and get them plated. Here they are after plating.....
PB100077.jpgPB100078.jpgPB100079.jpgPB100080.jpg

The casting numbers on the parts reflect BOTH machined finish parts. It is unusual that this was done this way to me. I don't think I've ever seen a similar casting number "oddity". Likely a cost savings as there were not that many HD suspensions sold. They are made from the same (mold or forged?) process but machined differently with the flat orienting for left or right. The flat faces the ground when installed in the hub web/flange.

For reference, the standard suspension shock mounts are the below part#'s. They have a relatively straight profile from the large stud which passes through the strut and hub flange.
3820929 Left
and
3820930 Right

The F41 HD mount has a heavier design and angles the shock stud outward at a angle to help the wider HD shock body clear the trailing arm. Machine finished part#'s are....
3829265 Left
and
3829266 Right

Here are some comparison photos of the 2 versions...
PB180016.jpgPB180012.jpgPB180013.jpgPB180014.jpgPB180015.jpg


The F41 HD dated shocks. These are rebuilt originals, restored by a retired ex-Bilstein Design Engineer. Notice the nice and even lines of the part numbers and character words.
PA060001.jpgPA060002.jpgPA060003.jpgPA060004.jpgPA060005.jpgPA060006.jpgPA060007.jpg

Installed
PB180001.jpgPB180002.jpgPB180004.jpgPB180005.jpgPB180006.jpgPB180007.jpg

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[Richard M.]

Re: F41 HD Rear Shocks and replated Strut/Shock Mounts

Update....

Alternator done and diodes stamped. 4th Qtr 1966 seemed reasonable to me for a March car.
PC010182.jpgPC010183.jpgPC010184.jpg

All bumper brackets media blasted, primed then painted semi-gloss black.
PC010185.jpgPC010186.jpgPC010187.jpgPC010188.jpgPC010189.jpg

Removed most of the front valence items, headlight motors, brackets, etc. The motors will be refreshed, cleaned, and re-lubricated.

The ground wires for both motors had the toothed washers in the wrong position. The right Micro-Switch had loose screws and a pinched wire. Note area pointed by the screwdriver blade. It appears it was like that for a long time. If it was grounded to the pivot assembly, it would place the "HEADLIGHTS" telltale lamp on at all times with Ignition on.
PC080013.jpgPC080014.jpgPC080015.jpgPC080016.jpg

Note the short length of the ground screws. If they are too long it will pierce the internal motor field coil and cause a dead short. That happened to me once.....and ONLY once.
PC080018.jpgPC080038.jpg

I need to check on what the motor case finish should be.
PC080039.jpgPC080041.jpg

The bezels must be removed to remove the 2 support braces.(pictured above. The short one is the nose support to grille and lower valence center tab.
PC080040.jpg

On to more unexpected enjoyment lately also....The right inner skirt had a Bubba experience in the past. Holes where there aren't supposed to be. Someone mounted some heavy items there as the backside inner skirt area had impressions of a nut and a washer in the 2 positions.

This is the method I use to fill holes in original fiberglass. Sadly, I had to strip the multiple layers of paint from the skirt and the wheel well side undercoating.

Because it is a grainy finish on the skirts, I use chopped mat and black resin, similar to original in a manual press molded arrangement using my long reach Vice-Grips. I beveled the holes on both sides so the "plug" will be captured forever and never fall out. This process will mimic the original grainy texture on the two plugged holes to match the original. The rearward hole plug will need to have a dimple carved into it before paint. The forward hole plug will be flat. There is a dimple above that hole as it is original. The dimples were drilled on the 327's for the expansion tank hose clips IIRC.

I mask the hole outer perimeter to keep the surrounding areas untouched. I had to make a metal plate with the same curvature of the skirt to press evenly. I use waxed paper to keep the resin free from the tools. I masked the backside(wheel well side) of the holes and used a plastic bondo spreader for that side. The backside plugs will be sanded smooth then the entire area will get re-coated with some blackout and high quality rubberized undercoating. I'll lightly rough up the engine bay side plugged repair spots, add a little scratchy grain with a sharp knife if needed, then red prime the entire skirt and finish off with blackout, a low gloss/satiny black.

I'll let the pictures do the rest of the talking.....
PC080007.jpgPC090003.jpgPC090057.jpgPC090058.jpgPC090026.jpgPC090027.jpgPC090028.jpgPC090035.jpgPC090036.jpgPC090039.jpgPC090042.jpgPC090032mod.jpgPC090060.jpgPC090061.jpgPC090063.jpgPC090064.jpgPC090065.jpgPC090066.jpgPC090067.jpgPC090068.jpgPC090074.jpgPC090070.jpgPC090072.jpgPC090075.jpgPC090081.jpgPC090082.jpgPC090086.jpgPC090087.jpgPC090088.jpgPC090089.jpgPC090090.jpgPC090091.jpg

Closeup of a original dimple just above the upper control arm rubber flap. I need to make one in the rearward repair plug.
PC090050.jpg

edit add.....This morning after a full night's resin cure, I used some 40 grit and a knife edge to bring out the grain appearance in the repair plugs before primer. The deep black cured resin grays just a smidgen to match the original glass. A wipe down with some acetone and they're done.
PC100033.jpgPC100034.jpgPC100035.jpgPC100036.jpg


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[Donald O.]

Re: F41 HD Rear Shocks and replated Strut/Shock Mounts

Richard,
Where do you get the black resin? Make it yourself with a black dye?
Don

[Richard M.]

Re: F41 HD Rear Shocks and replated Strut/Shock Mounts

Richard,
Where do you get the black resin? Make it yourself with a black dye?
Don

Don, I use standard polyester resin and simply mix a little bit of my black bonding adhesive with it. It only took about a little fingernail sized dab to mix in with a few ounces of resin.

Rich

PC080004.jpg PC090058.jpg

[Gene M.]

Re: 1967 Body Lift for Chassis & Frame Restoration

"New brushes will be installed when I get all of the pieces back from refinishing. I need to verify that rear bearing, which is in good condition, or locate a correct one. I'll need to color code the diodes upon reassembly, and put the proper coating on the edge of the field winging ring."

Rich

Rich, the correct needle brg in the back of the case s/b Torrington. Originals have this identifications on them, brg's are still available today.

[Gene M.]

Re: 1967 Body Lift for Chassis & Frame Restoration

Rich,
The seat back release has a design flaw. The motion is not normal to the line of action it is about 20 degrees off normal. Thus a loss of motion when the lever is turned. Also the fits on the originals are much too sloppy. I made new link and pawl arm to correct the design errors. This results in much smoother motion and seat release.

[Richard M.]

Re: 1967 Body Lift for Chassis & Frame Restoration

"New brushes will be installed when I get all of the pieces back from refinishing. I need to verify that rear bearing, which is in good condition, or locate a correct one. I'll need to color code the diodes upon reassembly, and put the proper coating on the edge of the field winging ring."

Rich

Rich, the correct needle brg in the back of the case s/b Torrington. Originals have this identifications on them, brg's are still available today.

Thanks Gene, Yes I saw a Torrington bearing recently on a original alternator a friend has. I got this photo from him. MNJ-641 is the number on it.

FullSizeRender.jpg IMG_1932.jpg

Specs here....http://www.yoyopart.com/oem/10445335...on-mnj641.html

Pasting here in case the above link should disappear...
Descripition
Brand:TORRINGTON
Part Number(s):MNJ641
ProductName:ROLLER BEARING
Inside Diameter:17.02 mm,0.6699 in
Outside Diameter:23.83 mm,0.938 in
Width:15.88 mm,0.625 in

Do you have a supplier that has them? I've searched extensively and cannot find a MNJ641 Torrington, only the replacements not made by Torrington.

Rich

[Richard M.]

Re: 1967 Body Lift for Chassis & Frame Restoration

Rich,
The seat back release has a design flaw. The motion is not normal to the line of action it is about 20 degrees off normal. Thus a loss of motion when the lever is turned. Also the fits on the originals are much too sloppy. I made new link and pawl arm to correct the design errors. This results in much smoother motion and seat release.

I learned it certainly has a design flaw. It's spring doesn't hold well and much play in the overall mechanism. I had to modify the springs with a hook to keep from falling out of the frame hole.

I actually made a few modifications to help make it smoother, but was limited with what I had. I bent the levers on the pawls a bit to keep the spring in place better on each. I also noticed that the angle of the lever is off from the line of the side so it's not very parallel with it. I did get them both working better, so I hope they'll be good. I tested each one about 20 times and neither malfunctioned. I hope I didn't use of of their lives.