Exhaust system blackout

[Edward J.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Chris, You cannot go wrong if you follow the JM, Correct or not. I can tell you the mitting thing maybe a problem, But this depends on the Chassis judge. I am planning on having my 63 judged in the fall at our regional. and the mufflers are painted black only on the bottom and rear area's. Mine exhaust was done a few years ago before the new JM.

[Bob J.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

[QUOTE=Christopher Price (59874);709678]


I want to match what the judges want to see at the meet. I'm not out to take a stand or make a statement I just don't want a deduction.
So......do I use something to remove the mitted blackout and present with bare "galvanized steel" as in the judging guide or coat with blackout spray to match up with one of the period photos shown above?
Thanks for helping the new guy, CP[/QUOTE

That is a classic example of why a judging guide needs to be accurate.
Situations like this, where the guide flip-flops back and forth is a poor way to treat 63-64 owners.
Owners are left with decisions about what to do.
Follow known originality examples or make changes change to follow a flawed judging guide?
There are plenty of pictures of untouched cars, cars on the assembly line and magazine photos showing BLACK-OUT.
I would do it as original and bring pics to prove your point, rather than make your car unoriginal by following an incorrect manual.
Bob Jorjorian

[Gary F.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Before the Judging Manual will ever change, TPTB (The Powers That Be ) have to first. This issue, along with a host of others is constantly brought up. The scary part is no one from TPTB steps up to the plate and recognizes these threads, or provides any assurances that these issues will be looked at. Bottom line, the threads die, and nothing is done, again. Not for anything, the reflection of a few people decisions, put in print, has a mass effect on people they don't even know, I for one, since I own a 63. Do the 63-64 owners deserve a better shake???, I definitely think so. Change has to be accepted, before it can be implemented, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Bob J.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Before the Judging Manual will ever change, TPTB (The Powers That Be ) have to first. This issue, along with a host of others is constantly brought up. The scary part is no one from TPTB steps up to the plate and recognizes these threads, or provides any assurances that these issues will be looked at. Bottom line, the threads die, and nothing is done, again. Not for anything, the reflection of a few people decisions, put in print, has a mass effect on people they don't even know, I for one, since I own a 63. Do the 63-64 owners deserve a better shake???, I definitely think so. Change has to be accepted, before it can be implemented, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

Gary,
I agree with you and that is exactly the case.
Meanwhile the Jim Lockwoods quit showing and Michael Hanson quits renewing his membership.
Hanson is a wealth of FIRST HAND knowledge to lose.
I really think 63-64 NEEDS new leadership after 25 years.
That is not asking for anything that other years don't already have.
With each new 63-64 JG edition we run into the same issues of stuff still not right, stuff changing back and forth from prior guides
Its 2014,... yet the 63-64 TL is the ONLY TL who requires a stamped self addressed envelope???
Come on guys its time to speak if you'd like to see a change.
Bob J

[Edward J.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Bob, Gary, I don't want to stir the pot, It seems that the wealth of knowledge here on the Discussion board is just not taken seriously. And If everyone made a visit here to see what is being discussed once a week, maybe there we would get some where. Guys Like John H. who have been there and remembers and understands the processes done on the corvette assembly line, he is just spread to thin and to have someone like him at the Judging manual revisions for all the Mid year corvettes would be to much to ask . Bob being a member only a fraction of the time you have been around I look to the senior members(Not meaning your old, just a wealth of knowledge) for there knowledge as I do want to take part in the judging of the 63/64 cars once I retire, For now I do most of the local stuff which I enjoy.

[Gene M.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Guys,
We all know how bad the judging guide is for 63-64. And I do not want to see guys restore their car to the 63-64 guide. I have told people in the past to do it correct regardless of what the guide specifies and whatever the point deduction is. The hobby is about restoration not points on the judging field. The points thing is not the reason to makes one's car WRONG. If that bothers you just leave the car home. And if you are a judge, judge it correctly regardless what the guide says. Be sure that as a judge you bring all the photos and documentation that verifies the truth.

[Dan H.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Hi all, having been a National Team Leader for 9 years, 58/60 cars, I find it rather odd that the NTL do not touch any topics on this board. Back in the 80s/90s we got telephone calls and letters, and best of all, input at Judging events. My JG was full of notes, I have scrap books full of original car pictures sent to me. My phone rang every night at dinner time, big hit with the wife! This DB should be the sounding board for information and corrections to the JG. I've sent dozens of corrections in for the 63/64 JG, only a very few were ever corrected. Maybe a central collection sight should be added and audtited by the NTL and commented on as to value of the information. I know some worry that we might get 'too detailed' with too much information. Well, can't we just correct what exist now so people aren't building cars for points instead of correctly restoring them?
Dan

[Patrick T.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Gary,
I agree with you and that is exactly the case.
Meanwhile the Jim Lockwoods quit showing and Michael Hanson quits renewing his membership.
Hanson is a wealth of FIRST HAND knowledge to lose.
I really think 63-64 NEEDS new leadership after 25 years.
That is not asking for anything that other years don't already have.
With each new 63-64 JG edition we run into the same issues of stuff still not right, stuff changing back and forth from prior guides
Its 2014,... yet the 63-64 TL is the ONLY TL who requires a stamped self addressed envelope???
Come on guys its time to speak if you'd like to see a change.
Bob J

I've been a member of the NCRS since 1999 and I've heard of this subject coming up time and time again, with never a satisfactory resolution. Has anyone ever heard a response from the TL regarding the subject matter? He has zero posts here but his email is colclc@aol.com which is listed here. That way you can keep the SASE for something else. It certainly seems kind of ironic this person is also the Public Relations Manager for the NCRS.

At this point, it appears to me like there is no other alternative but to go straight to the top, since going through the chain of command here doesn't seem to be working. I'm sure our new President, Dick Capello @ dcapello1260@gmail.com would be happy to look into this. I'm not trying to start any fires here but this matter needs to be attended to now, it's long overdue.

Respectfully submitted.

[Alan D.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

after spending lots of time assuring the rear end was ALL original parts, yes including the U-Joints, and black out I missed the new JG calling for min blackout ---- so big point deduction. So simplest way to fix problem, I no longer show the car!

[Brian M.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

We haven't heard word 1 from our new president, what's up with that?

[Bob J.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

after spending lots of time assuring the rear end was ALL original parts, yes including the U-Joints, and black out I missed the new JG calling for min blackout ---- so big point deduction. So simplest way to fix problem, I no longer show the car!

Alan, I'm sorry to hear that but I sure don't blame you for not returning.
I helped on a 63-64 manual revision second edition 1984, when Bill Clupper was judging chairman and Eddie Hammer-Huber was 63-64 TL. It was a pleasure working under Bill Clupper, who I think is a real asset to Corvette and NCRS.
That 84 edition wasn't as thorough as newer editions but I NEVER remember the problems that seem to constantly crop up in recent editions.
There are so few original cars out there to learn from, we need to do a better job.
Alan did a lot of research, spent a lot of time and money then walked away frustrated. What a poor ending to a good job!
The same EXACT thing would happen if a TOTALLY ORIGINAL car showed up looking like that Road & Track pic underneath..
He would be told its not original, a dealer must have undercoated your rear suspension / exhaust because the JG says its not blacked out.
Probably wouldn't see that original car again.
Certainly couldn'tblame him since he's been told its NOT original due to an inaccurate JG.
Worst than that, he returns home to remove that ORIGINAL black -out to conform to an inaccurate JG.
Sad state guys,Bob J

[Michael W.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Unless my memory is failing me, I thought the presence of blackout was added to the '63-'64 guide after a considerable amount of indisputable and impartial evidence was presented by various members contributing to an update. At the time I thought the lack of mention in previous editions of the JG was rather strange as the blackout would be pretty hard to miss when looking anywhere underneath a car, even more so since it did not carry over to later midyears or other generations of cars. I figured it was not mentioned because 'everybody knows that it's there' and is as obvious as knowing that the cars aren't four wheel drive.

I understand now that the blackout mention has been deliberately removed from the latest edition of the JG, not by some inadvertent editorial error or by new evidence that contradicts the previous findings. How can this be? Aside from causing owners to incorrectly restore or preserve their cars- what is the point of having members submit suggestions or corrections to JGs if this is the thanks they get?

Why is it also that this never ending controversy seems to be centred or maybe exclusive to the '63-'64 guide? I can't really recall any such controversy on other years of cars. I remember in the days of Marvin Burnett being TL for the '73-'77 cars, each bit of info I brought forward was gratefully received and carefully taken into account. Several obscure findings made their way into the current JG which encouraged me to contribute more, knowing that I wasn't wasting my time.

I think the owners of the '63-'64 cars deserve better as do the judges and contributors to the JGs. There's no reason for the judging of these cars to be managed any differently.

[Tony S.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

As for the '63/'64 manual, it is best to take it up with the TL.

Chassis blackout has been a lingering topic on the DB. For those who are '65 owners, I can assure you that the three of us that recently re-wrote and submitted the revisions for the '65 chassis section for the upcoming new '65 JG did document many original cars with factory chassis blackout. We included that language, and supporting photos, because there is substantial evidence for it. I should point out in the most general sense that we shouldn't expect a JG to change because a single car has a specific feature that may deviate from TFP. It takes more documentation than a single car having a particular feature. However, in the case of blackout, especially for '65, there is ample evidence of factory chassis blackout. I am confident that the new '65 JG will include chassis blackout discussion, and without the help of so many great fellow NCRS members, we couldn't have had access to so many great original cars to help us with the revision process.

One of my points is this: keep offering photos and information of original cars. Most of us do pay attention, and it does make a difference.

Tony

[Bob J.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

As for the '63/'64 manual, it is best to take it up with the TL.

One of my points is this: keep offering photos and information of original cars. Most of us do pay attention, and it does make a difference.

Tony

Tony,
I can assure you that taking it up with the team leader DID happen prior to the last last jg being published.
I was part of the team of contributors, even though my name does not appear as one.
If you would like to confirm my statement on being a contributor you're welcome to contact Bob Young, who gathered the info from MANY whose names also do not appear in the current jg.
I feel, even though I've never meet him, that anything that is presented contrary to his thoughts is dismissed.
The reason I say this is a very prominent member here overheard him say "I'm the most knowledgeable person on the planet on 63-64".
That pretty much gives you a clue why ONLY the 63-64 JG is constantly faulted for errors.
Add to this, that in past years any discussion that turned into a negative view on the 63-64 JG was immediately deleted and the poster was told he did not know the subject OR to submit the info to the TL for review.
If you remember, Michael Hanson was BANNED on the db years ago because he began listing JG items he could PROVE were wrong.
This all happened right HERE, on the board, so anybody present could question his opinion in public and prove him wrong.
That kind treatment, like Hanson received, silenced most critics and the cycle continued on flawed JGs.
Sorry but your idea works for other years but I don't think it does for the 63-64 guys. BoB J

[Gary F.]

Re: Exhaust system blackout

Was there any documentation used to re-vise the manual from black-out to NON black-out, or was this a patronage political call to satisfy a few???? Once again, no transparency in decisions, " here it is, deal with it "???? Did a real human being actually sign off on this revision, knowing full well this decision will affect many, many people, in a very short period of time??? Was everyone on the re-vision team in totally complete agreement with this? This has turned into a very sad story, and it shouldn't be. To top it off we have multiple owner disgust, already. According to the current JG, your car will match the decisions made by the team leader, and not the criteria the factory used when the car was built. How cool is that?