1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

[Zachary H.]

I took delivery of a 1960 with the base 230 hp motor and 4 speed in November of last year. Since receiving it the weather has not been all that nice here in the northeast so I have had limited use of the vehicle. My plans are to enjoy it this summer and learn as much as I can about this car while enjoying it. I would then like to figure out what the next step would be. Are there certain criteria to consider in determining if a frame on vs frame off is the way to go or is one way just simply better than the other? Is there any downside to tackling some of the shorter term projects while enjoying the car such as interior trim pieces, door panels, etc? I apologize in advance if this subject has been beaten to death but I did a quick search and did not find anything real specific. Thanks to all thoughts and comments.

Zach

[Bill M.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Zac
we started out just replacing carpet, heatercore, repair under dash wiring, rotten seat brackets and the next thing you know we were removing the body of our 66 convertible. my wife and i did all of the work like i said in past posts it took 40 hrs just to remove the mounting bolts. but i will tell you what a pleasure it is to work on the chasis whithout the body on it. we had to replace the frame section behind drivers door and could never have gotten the trailing arms out with the body on. we are not going full blown on car because it is only a 300 hp car but we live in New York and this will be our winter driver. going sort of rat rod hooker side pipes black wheels black bumpers. hope this helps. We have a few mid years so we had a car to get around in.

Bill

[Paul J.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Zach,

There's no comparison between a frame on and a frame off restoration. Frame off is the only true "restoration", and it's what I prefer. A frame on restoration is really just patching things on the car. But your use of the car may not warrant all of the cost of a frame off. When I'm going to flip a car, I'll seldom perform a frame off restoration because it is harder to recoup the costs, unless it is a special car.

You can always start replacing things and eventually do a frame off (it's called the "might as wells", like Bill mentioned). But remember it's like remodeling a house, everything you throw in the trash you already paid for, so you can easily waste money. While replacing things that you can reuse in a frame off is pretty safe, if those things get too much wear on them before the full restoration you might end up replacing them twice. However, most people start out just freshening the car up with a few new pieces.

Paul

[Zachary H.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Bill I guess it is like any other project once you get started in takes on a life of it's own, so to speak.

Paul allot of what you and Bill mention was going through my mind. I would like to freshen up some things that just don't look real well until it is time to make the decision on what to do next. It is good to hear others have gone that route as well.

[Mike E.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Bill I guess it is like any other project once you get started in takes on a life of it's own, so to speak.

Paul allot of what you and Bill mention was going through my mind. I would like to freshen up some things that just don't look real well until it is time to make the decision on what to do next. It is good to hear others have gone that route as well.

One thing IMO is making sure the car is safe to drive. Check the brake lines and fuel lines. Remember most cars produced prior to 1967 have a single circuit hydraulic system. If a line should fail it means a total system failure. I was in a car as passenger that blew a line, nobody was hurt but could have been catastrophic under different circumstances. A fuel leak could also be unsafe for obvious reasons. Also double check the suspension for dangerous parts. See the ball joint in the first photo.

I'm in the early stage of my frame off. The chassis is nearly complete now & I'm on to the engine. As Paul said a frame off is a total commitment to the car. Once you start it's tough to change directions. If you are doing the work yourself have a realistic target date for the completion but don't rush it.

I'm at somewhat of an advantage. I've owned my '65 car nearly 37 years so I've had my fun driving it back in the day. I WILL drive it again...Someday









Mike

[Jerry W.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

do a body off...you will find some nasty things that needs to be fixed...( rusted body mounts..internal rocker panel support rusted out )...Just Sayin

[Richard M.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

It totally depends on what you want to do with it. Show perfect?.....or drive it.

Saturday morning I went to a monthly car show sponsored my my local NAPA. I took my '59, which I've owned for 27 1/2 years now. It's a nice driver with imperfect paint, body never off the frame, I drive it everywhere when I can. Over the years I've maintained it, restored the interior a few times(on 3rd carpet set 2 yrs ago), same soft top I restored and installed in 1992( no wrinkles and fits nice. I keep it up when sitting, top down on occasion), rebuilt engine in '95(new valve seals a few months ago), re-chromed stuff about 20 years ago, etc, etc. Recently wet sanding and buffing that enamel paintjob from 1977 a prior owner did. looking pretty good on the parts I've done.

The weather looked a little iffy when I got to the NAPA parking lot. I just finished detailing it there, and a few other cars showed up. Usually gets 30 to 40 cars there. A buddy with a black/black '63 coupe drove up in his SUV. Didn't want to get the SWC wet and checked the status. Another buddy called and said it was raining at his house 5 miles south, so he bagged it. I would too if it was raining before I left. Well it started to rain at the parking lot, and it rained hard. Waited an hour in the store for it to slow down. Oh well, time to try the ole' wipers, and get ready with the rags to stay dry inside the car from that leaky windshield header weatherstrip. Over the years I've considered adding a wiper set on the inside of the glass.

What am I getting at here....?

Well, I drove home, which is about 15 minutes away, in the pouring rain. It was a blast! The wipers were slapping up and down, barely clearing those big raindrops from the glass and streaks galore. I took the long way home it was so much fun. Every time I hit a puddle I felt good becasue it was cleaning the dirt off the frame. I got home, hosed it off, wiped it with the chamois and pulled it in the garage.

I have too much fun driving it around worrying about getting it a little wet or getting a scratch from road junk. Last night was a local weekly cruise-in a Checkers burger joint. My wife took her '72 Jag, so I took our little Cocker Spaniel buddy for a ride in the '59 with me. Would I do that if the car ws fully restored? I doubt it.

I will never do a body off on my '59.

Rich

[Rob M.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

It totally depends on what you want to do with it. Show perfect?.....or drive it.

Saturday morning I went to a monthly car show sponsored my my local NAPA. I took my '59, which I've owned for 27 1/2 years now. It's a nice driver with imperfect paint, body never off the frame, I drive it everywhere when I can. Over the years I've maintained it, restored the interior a few times(on 3rd carpet set 2 yrs ago), same soft top I restored and installed in 1992( no wrinkles and fits nice. I keep it up when sitting, top down on occasion), rebuilt engine in '95(new valve seals a few months ago), re-chromed stuff about 20 years ago, etc, etc. Recently wet sanding and buffing that enamel paintjob from 1977 a prior owner did. looking pretty good on the parts I've done.

The weather looked a little iffy when I got to the NAPA parking lot. I just finished detailing it there, and a few other cars showed up. Usually gets 30 to 40 cars there. A buddy with a black/black '63 coupe drove up in his SUV. Didn't want to get the SWC wet and checked the status. Another buddy called and said it was raining at his house 5 miles south, so he bagged it. I would too if it was raining before I left. Well it started to rain at the parking lot, and it rained hard. Waited an hour in the store for it to slow down. Oh well, time to try the ole' wipers, and get ready with the rags to stay dry inside the car from that leaky windshield header weatherstrip. Over the years I've considered adding a wiper set on the inside of the glass.

What am I getting at here....?

Well, I drove home, which is about 15 minutes away, in the pouring rain. It was a blast! The wipers were slapping up and down, barely clearing those big raindrops from the glass and streaks galore. I took the long way home it was so much fun. Every time I hit a puddle I felt good becasue it was cleaning the dirt off the frame. I got home, hosed it off, wiped it with the chamois and pulled it in the garage.

I have too much fun driving it around worrying about getting it a little wet or getting a scratch from road junk. Last night was a local weekly cruise-in a Checkers burger joint. My wife took her '72 Jag, so I took our little Cocker Spaniel buddy for a ride in the '59 with me. Would I do that if the car ws fully restored? I doubt it.

I will never do a body off on my '59.

Rich

Looks like a beautiful car to me, enjoy it while it last!

[Zachary H.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Mike, your chassis looks very nice. Good luck with the rest of your restoration. Would love to see how it turns out.

Jerry, I hear what you are saying and those thoughts plus more are what keeps me in the game for a full off resto.

Rich, your 59 looks very nice. I looked at a 59 very similar to yours except it could not hold a candle to what yours appears to be. Everything you shared in your post is exactly what has been going through my mind. While I would like to have a top flight car, like I am sure all of us would, I really do want to enjoy driving the cars without the worry. I was smiling reading your thoughts of staying dry inside the car. I have not been in the rain with this car yet but looking at the fit of the soft top I can only imagine what it would be like. The hard top fits much nicer but who wants to deal with taking that on and off all the time. I guess I will see how I use it this summer and let that be the guide on what to do next. Oh well back to shoveling more snow.

Zach

[Thomas H.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Zach,

I would drive it for a while and get a feel for the car. Talk to several other C1 owners and get their experiences. Join your local chapter and you'll get lots of experienced opinions there.

It really boils down to what you want to do with the car and how many additional $$ you want to put into it.

I have a black 60 that had not been on the road since 85. I got it in 2009 and I wrestled with pulling the body. I finally decided that since it was a very original one owner car I would make it mechanically sound and safe to drive. The paint is not the best but the whole car has that old "patina" that would be lost if I were to start any real level of restoration. Plus the feeling of get in and drive it anywhere is a good one. I have had other cars where I put lots of effort into the resto that I wouldn't take them out if I had to park them anywhere or there was a 1% chance of rain. Not much fun when you get to that point.

A local chapter member restores C1's and he told me that in order to do a body off on my car it would be approx. 900-1100 hours. At $50/hr that adds up quick. I would do most of the work myself to save $$ but I'd have to have the paint and chrome done and right there is probably 20K. Again, it runs and drives just fine, so it will stay that way.............

I see you are in PA. I live in Warminster and if you want, I can get together with you to talk about your car.

Tom

[Zachary H.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Tom, Thanks for all the great thoughts. I am in Buckingham just up the road. I would very much enjoy getting together. I am fairly new to this forum and not sure how pm works. Is this the best way to exchange contact info?

Zach

[Thomas H.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Zach,

When you log in you will see "Notifications" next to your name in the upper right of the screen. Click on that to read any private messages (PM) that you get. In orcer to send one, either reply to one you got or click on the posters name and an option will come up to send a PM.

I just sent you my contact info.

Tom

[Dan D.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

I'm with you. While I realize that you can never dispute taste and preference, I believe a Corvette should be driven and enjoyed.

[Richard M.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Zach,

Yes you have to decide how you want your car to be used. That's probably the hardest decision of early ownership. I'd say we all want to have that beautiful fully restored "brand new car feeling" when we open that garage door for a drive in the countryside or on the way to the local car show. There is nothing like that feeling. Of course time and finances play a big role in the end too. The decision is yours how you want to proceed. Just keep in mind if you decide on a full body-off project that you will not have the car to drive for a substantial amount of time. Whatever you figure timewise, IMO, double it. Whatever you figure for cost....IMO add 25%.

Either way, the first priority should be safety. These old rides can get worn out and some things need to be in A1 shape... like brakes, tires, suspension, steering, fuel system condition, etc. If you're uncertain about these items, check them carefully as those items are much more important than the appearance items. I recently helped a friend do a body-off on his '59 and during tear-down it had several serious safety issues that could have been disastrous.....like a loose pitman arm bolt ready to fall off, tie rod end socket ball ready to pop out, brake linings paper thin, loose hardware, etc. Here in Florida there is NO mandatory automobile inspection process. It is up to the owners to ensure the cars are safe. BTW, my friend never drives his fully restored '59 now because he's afraid to get it scratched and doesn't want to loose that "fresh" restoration feeling. His choice.

I like to take my own car on long rides. I just keep some spares along. A belt, coil, contact points/condenser, dist cap, rotor, voltage regulator, some hoses and clamps, spare fluids, tire repair kit & mini compressor, wiring kit, hand tools, etc. I keep the spare pieces stashed in that "secret" storage area between the trunk division panel and backside of the soft top storage wall. 4 screws and I can get them if needed. I keep a small fire extinguisher in the seat separator/glovebox, and a bigger one in the trunk.

Good luck deciding and congrats on your new ride.....
Rich

[Dan D.]

Re: 1960 Frame on vs frame off restoration

Rich,

I have to tell you; it’s refreshing to hear someone talking about enjoying their car rather than to be consumed about a ribbon, plaque or cup. I don’t question another’s taste or preference. I truly believe in “live and let live,” and if someone’s passion is to return a car to absolute “showroom” condition and just look at it; I say God bless and have at it. I picked up my '72 convertible in 1985. I was a District Manager for Pontiac Division and all the dealers in my district knew I was looking for an “original” Corvette convertible with a stick. Now, I know I'll get some flack here but, to me, it "ain't" a sports car unless the top goes down and you're shifting gears. Anyway, one of my dealers called me at home and told me he was taking this car in on a special edition Trans Am. He said the car looked OK, so I asked him to hold it and I would be up. When I saw the car, it did look pretty good and I bought it. Four years later, in 1989, while in for some routine maintenance, the service manager called me that he saw some spots on the frame. (It took that long for the camouflage to wear off) Long story short; either cut through the plastic or take the body off. After the body was off, you could read a newspaper through where the trailing arms went into the frame. Now, the dealer and I both knew why the previous owner was willing to pay what was really "too much / too fast" trading it in on the Trans Am. But then again, since the dealer had offered me the car for what he had in it, although I made him take $200 over, I couldn't complain and over the years we always had a good laugh about it. Goes to show you, everybody thinks dealers are "shaky", but, I could fill a book with what I've seen customers do to "get over" on dealers and/or the factory. Anyway, with the body off, now I was faced with the same decision….Do I turn it into a show car and look at it…or make it the sweetest looking, most reliable driver possible? I chose the latter. Being a GM employee, I had plenty of help locating whatever I needed. It was through my buddies that I located the new frame, trailing arms, "A" frames and lots of other parts scattered around in GMPD warehouses. Once that decision was made, as long as the original appearance wasn’t changed, replacements and upgrades over the years have been made with the aim of reliability and durability, not show standards. My car isn’t a show car, it’s a driver. The car is still in the original paint. Sure, if you look closely, you can see stone nicks, light scratches on the chrome and some seam line shrinkage. Two years ago I had a new top and interior put in. I've really enjoyed maintaining and driving the car. I keep regular plates, full insurance and get regular state inspections so I have absolutely no restrictions on driving. I wouldn’t hesitate to drive this 41 year old car cross country…it’s that sound. Besides, I really don’t want something I can’t use and enjoy. And, if you're still reading this, I apologize for rambling...but, hey, that's what old people do.

Keep enjoying your car,
Dan