Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

[Duke W.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Dennis,

Another option if you want to use a new oil pump and have a old GM pump cover to install. I believe this will work fine also but have never tried it. After reading Michael's results I think at this point I would try Duke's suggestion and use a Federal Mogul pump but I find it hard to believe it's not a Melling pump. Maybe someone here can post a picture of that replacement pump.

The first and best option is to use the original pump. They're easy to disassemble and inspect and rarely show much, if any wear wear unless it ingested debris from something disintegrating in the engine. Any wear on the end plate can be quickly removed by dressing the surface with some solvent wetted 220-400 paper on a flat surface, and the pump body end plate mounting surface and one gear can be so dressed as necessary to get end clearance down to two to three thou, which will help prime the pump quicker.

Duke

[William C.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

High volume pump use with the small pan will create that problem...

[Bruce W.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Joe thanks for your help. as you will recall I am concerned about 45 lbs. of pressure when my car is at idle fully warmed up. I am going for my PV this fall. I bought a new pump and am now concerned about the pick up screen. I spoke with an engine rebuilder who told me that the tube that goes into the oil pump needs to be tack welded to the pump, Is that true? how does it stay in place? Is there anything special I need to do when putting in the new pump to hold the pick up screen in place? BTW I tried running 10w 30 in the car. It brought the oil pressure down considerably but the car smokes too much with that oil in it? Thanks again for your help.Bruce

[Gene M.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Joe thanks for your help. as you will recall I am concerned about 45 lbs. of pressure when my car is at idle fully warmed up. I am going for my PV this fall. I bought a new pump and am now concerned about the pick up screen. I spoke with an engine rebuilder who told me that the tube that goes into the oil pump needs to be tack welded to the pump, Is that true? how does it stay in place? Is there anything special I need to do when putting in the new pump to hold the pick up screen in place? BTW I tried running 10w 30 in the car. It brought the oil pressure down considerably but the car smokes too much with that oil in it? Thanks again for your help.Bruce

Bruce,
Tack weld the pick up is good safety measure. But GM just press fit them in place as delivered. Thin oil with high miles is not a good mix. Have you tried 10W 40? Always use and additive if the oil does not have the dzzp or zinc properties for the camshaft.

[Loren L.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

With regard to the original question (and as an aside to trailer queen judges), the General's engineers have been heard from on this topic. The July 1965 "Chevrolet Service News", on page 6:

"High Engine Oil Pressure!
Corvette 327 cu in - 365-375 HP

The above 327 cu in high performance Corvette engine oil pressures in the area of 80-95 psi (at 2,000 RPM) CAN BE EXPECTED and are PERFECTLY NORMAL.
However, damage may occur to this engine if the 283 cu in engine oil pump is used which delivers oil pressure of 65 psi at 2,000 RPM." (Emphasis supplied)

[Joe L.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Joe thanks for your help. as you will recall I am concerned about 45 lbs. of pressure when my car is at idle fully warmed up. I am going for my PV this fall. I bought a new pump and am now concerned about the pick up screen. I spoke with an engine rebuilder who told me that the tube that goes into the oil pump needs to be tack welded to the pump, Is that true? how does it stay in place? Is there anything special I need to do when putting in the new pump to hold the pick up screen in place? BTW I tried running 10w 30 in the car. It brought the oil pressure down considerably but the car smokes too much with that oil in it? Thanks again for your help.Bruce

Bruce------


The pick-up tube is an interference fit in the oil pump. If installed correctly, it will not fall out. However, this assumes a NEW pick-up is installed each time a pick-up tube is removed. If you try to re-use a pick-up tube, it WILL fall out. If you install a new pick-up tube but install it "crooked", it WILL fall out. Tack welding it to the pump will eliminate the chance of it falling out regardless of whether a new or used tube is installed.

The tube is be adjusted so that the pick-up screen is about 1/4" off the bottom of the pan. After the tube is installed, but prior to tack welding, the tube can be rotated slightly to achieve the proper clearance. Then, tack weld it.

[Duke W.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

I ran several hundred hot laps at Kent back in the sixties with my 340 HP SWC and never had any oil system related problems. Upon disassembly at 115K miles the crankshaft miced-out in the middle of production tolerance, and all the Morraine 400 bearings look literally new. The camshaft might have had a thou to two wear over the top as the total lobe heights were at the bottom or slightly under minimum production tolerance.

I never understood why GM increased the oil pressure on mechanical lifter engines in late '63. These engines with their 6500 redlines had been around since '57, and the only common problem was oil stavation under high dynamic chassis loading, which is why SCCA racers learned to run the a quart overfull, and fortunately I learned that before my first outing to Kent.

At high revs there's two to three quarts of oil up in the engine trying to find a way back to the pan, and the higher the revs the tougher the path.

Duke

[Mike E.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Bruce------


The pick-up tube is an interference fit in the oil pump. If installed correctly, it will not fall out. However, this assumes a NEW pick-up is installed each time a pick-up tube is removed. If you try to re-use a pick-up tube, it WILL fall out. If you install a new pick-up tube but install it "crooked", it WILL fall out. Tack welding it to the pump will eliminate the chance of it falling out regardless of whether a new or used tube is installed.

The tube is be adjusted so that the pick-up screen is about 1/4" off the bottom of the pan. After the tube is installed, but prior to tack welding, the tube can be rotated slightly to achieve the proper clearance. Then, tack weld it.

Bruce,
Tack weld the pick up is good safety measure. But GM just press fit them in place as delivered. Thin oil with high miles is not a good mix. Have you tried 10W 40? Always use and additive if the oil does not have the dzzp or zinc properties for the camshaft.

When I tore down my '65 L-76 someone had already tack welded the pickup to the pump.



Mike

[Joe L.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

When I tore down my '65 L-76 someone had already tack welded the pickup to the pump.



Mike

Mike------


They added the brace, too. That's not an original feature. Actually, with that configuration brace installed, the tack welding of the tube was not really necessary.

[Mike E.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Mike------


They added the brace, too. That's not an original feature. Actually, with that configuration brace installed, the tack welding of the tube was not really necessary.

Thanks Joe,

The more I look at this pickup the more I think it was some type of Rube Goldberg setup and should be replaced. Add to that it looks like rust holes in the pickup itself. The issue I have is this pickup looked to fit perfectly with the 6 quart pan and Windage Tray. The repo pickups (last photo) that LIC and others sell look nothing like this one. Will the repo part work with the pan/tray combination?

[Timothy B.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Mike,

Take that junk off and get the correct pick up for your car. Melling makes the correct part, the one you have pictured is for the chevy passenger car.

Loren,

I have never seen a stock corvette engine make that kind of oil pressure. Maybe when it's cold and the bypass can't let enough oil back to the inlet.

[Joe L.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Thanks Joe,

The more I look at this pickup the more I think it was some type of Rube Goldberg setup and should be replaced. Add to that it looks like rust holes in the pickup itself. The issue I have is this pickup looked to fit perfectly with the 6 quart pan and Windage Tray. The repo pickups (last photo) that LIC and others sell look nothing like this one. Will the repo part work with the pan/tray combination?

Mike------


I don't know why someone would have fabricated this pick-up for a stock-type 6 quart oil pan. The 5 quart and 6 quart pans used the same pick-up. The fabricated one might be someone's idea of "something that will work better". I'm confident that GM had the right pick-up configuration worked out. The added bracket wasn't a bad idea, though.

The reproduction pick-up pictured is not correct. This looks like a GM #3855152 to me but it might be one of the C1 pick-ups, too. The 3855152 is a VERY common pick-up used for MANY Chevrolet models. For Corvette, it was only used for 1975-79 which used a passenger car pan.

The correct pick-up is a GM #3830080. This pick-up is a Corvette-only piece and was used for all 1963-74 small blocks as well as 80-82 and 84-92. It's GM-discontinued but an exact duplicate is available from Melling. An NOS GM #3830080 is pictured below [not for sale].

DSCN3002.jpgDSCN3003.jpgDSCN3004.jpg

[Mike E.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Mike,

Take that junk off and get the correct pick up for your car. Melling makes the correct part, the one you have pictured is for the chevy passenger car.

Mike------


I don't know why someone would have fabricated this pick-up for a stock-type 6 quart oil pan. The 5 quart and 6 quart pans used the same pick-up. The fabricated one might be someone's idea of "something that will work better". I'm confident that GM had the right pick-up configuration worked out. The added bracket wasn't a bad idea, though.

The reproduction pick-up pictured is not correct. This looks like a GM #3855152 to me but it might be one of the C1 pick-ups, too. The 3855152 is a VERY common pick-up used for MANY Chevrolet models. For Corvette, it was only used for 1975-79 which used a passenger car pan.

The correct pick-up is a GM #3830080. This pick-up is a Corvette-only piece and was used for all 1963-74 small blocks as well as 80-82 and 84-92. It's GM-discontinued but an exact duplicate is available from Melling. An NOS GM #3830080 is pictured below [not for sale].

[ATTACH=CONFIG]54456[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]54457[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]54458[/ATTACH]

Timothy & Joe,
Thanks for the help! It looks like the 3830080 crosses to Melling 55-S3 or Sealed Power 224-14227 which is available for around $15. I also see that you can get an installation tool for around $16 would that be money well spent?

Mike

[Timothy B.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Mike,

You can get the new pick up and install it snug in the pump lid and with a 3/8" or 1/2" bolt taped to the lowest part then install the oil pan and let it push the pick up to the correct position. Remove pan and mark it then take it to a machine shop as they will have the correct tool to install because it's a interference fit. You can then have them spot weld the tube in place if you feel it did not move.

My experience has been that if the pick up is to close it will drum on the bottom of the oil pan.

[Joe L.]

Re: Fail PV if high-pressure oil pump??

Timothy & Joe,
Thanks for the help! It looks like the 3830080 crosses to Melling 55-S3 or Sealed Power 224-14227 which is available for around $15. I also see that you can get an installation tool for around $16 would that be money well spent?

Mike

Mike------


Without the tool, you won't get the pick-up installed correctly. In fact, even with the tool you might not get it installed correctly. The tube MUST be installed STRAIGHT-AND-TRUE. If it's cocked even slightly as it's driven in, it will distort and not achieve a good interference fit. Then, it can get loose and fall out.