Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

[Edward J.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Rich. would like to know if anything is found? How did the head gasket appear? when the head gaskets are removed do a close inspection of the combustion sealing rings maybe even wipe them and take a mic. and measure the thickness on those cylinder affected by water and note the imprint of the head gasket sealing ring on block and cylinder heads. This is generally the area of pressurizing the cooling system to the point of blowing hoses off.

[Richard M.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Edward, I'll certainly update as I get new information. We're not planning to reinstall until early January due to schedule issues. that is unless a serious cylinder block issue is found prior to that.

This last time, Felpro Severe Duty head gaskets were used, the Felpro 501SD. These have a compressed thickness of 0.039" - 0.042". They also include a unique silicone sealing profile around each cooling port.

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The first time, I did in fact measure the metal rings on the standard Felpro rebuilder gaskets that were used. No smoking gun, however indications of water seepage near the spark plug cooling ports was observed. See this post in the original thread.....Here. Note that at that time the suspects were #'s 5, 6, & 7, with traces of seepage at #8 as well. All had washed spark plugs and pistons/head chambers. As a recap of this 2nd rebuild, #'s 7 & 8 had partially washed plugs and washed pistons/head chambers. #'s 5 & 6 now show improvement, but still sublte signs of the washing effect.

I truly believe that the problem still lies in uneven deck surfaces of the cylinder block. I believe due to extensive testing(3 times) it is not the heads. I don't believe that the cylinder walls have porosity or a core shift related problem. By detailed diagnosis and analyzing the failed cylinders, and the fact that after "re-decking" the block again, the problem has shown to be not as severe as originally, but somewhat improved. Unfortunately, I did not clean the gasket surfaces of block or heads to verify "flatness" of the block this time around. Recall that I got the 2nd rebuild delivered to me as a "Long Block", built oil pan to intake.

Recap.....
1- First rebuild, combustion gas dye test immediately turned the dye yellow withiin a few seconds of vapor draw time.
2 - Second rebuild, combustion gas dye test turned the dye green after 30 seconds of vapor draw time.
3 - Leak down tests confirmed which suspect cylinders that showed signs of "washing".

Rich

[John M.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Rich, If I understand this correctly you blow the radiator hose off before the radiator cap allows the pressure to blow there. This would mean that either the water/air pressure in the engine is less than 13 psi or the radiator cap is no good. I had a radiator hose blow violently on my 69BB and the only thing wrong was it was not on there tight enough. I wish I had a photo of the blast; it made one helluva mess and had me very worried that something big was wrong. It was just the hose connection.
Sorry to hear all you troubles with this.

[Richard M.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

It has been months of waiting, the engine has been rebuilt for a 3rd time. This last time, the bare block was "immersed" in a tank and pressured tested to 150 psi, no cracks. The machine shop reassembled it with no other work. I asked if the decks were checked again. I got the runaround. New head gaskets, Victor 0.039" CT(compressed thickness) according to him.

We saw the engine run on the test stand on Friday. Ran for 10 minutes, 3 times. I asked if a Block Tester Combustion Gas Dye test was done. They said yes, but showed me their test kit.....It was NG. Dye was contaminated. I went to my truck, got my test kit, produced the test......and the test failed. Still has traces of gasses in the coolant.

As I said months ago, the block was damaged when it was placed upside down on a flat table BELT sander, both sides. It's STILL has uneven surfaces IMO, even after re-decking/machining. I believe ALL holes..... coolant holes, cylinder bores, etc, have been compromised by the belt sander. Irregularities caused by the radiusing effect of the edges of each hole, thus casuing valleys and hills everywhere. I believe the leaks are microscopic and are surrounding the cylinder bores, as evidenced the first time this engine was run in October. After running at high rpms and getting hotter, the the microscopic leaking gasses pressurize the cooling system and eventually overflows itself.

Things got nearly very ugly. The shop is in denial, says the dye test is inconclusive, and held the engine hostage until he got payment from the owner for his fine machine shop skills for his testing and rebuilding. He said his warranty(of the 2nd rebuild) was void because the owner removed the heads, and that he(shop owner) never "saw" the problem. Payment made under duress to get the engine back, back in the car yesterday(for the 3rd time) and will run-up today. I have a suspicion that it's possible the a "miracle leak fixer juice" of some kind may have been added to this engine before we got there. I don't trust what was done by this shop.

More to come, maybe.

Rich

[Edward J.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Good morning Rich, since your last post on your engine, I was working on a 63 that had over heated and removed the heads and gave to a machine shop for check and valve job and found one cracked head, that's okay found a good used head, but when I went to clean the block a few weeks later had notice the block had been cleaned with what looked like a rotary grinding tool and the owner decided to just reassy. the engine block as it was working that way before hand. So I did and after re-assy. no problems. So as you are still set against something with the block surface not being perfect the gaskets can help with imperfections, I thought I would share this with you. One more note, Combustion generally enters a engine cooling system from a few things, The sealing ring on the head gasket not sealing and the at this point the combustion enters the cooling system from the area that does not seal, or a cracked or surface is not flat on the cylinder head(s). GOOD LUCK WITH THE START UP.

[Richard M.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Edward, Yes, when I did my very first diagnosis, in my 1st thread on this problem, I could see traces of the sealing ring escapement.

20 years ago, when I did my first Chevy engine rebuild, I bought the Book, "How to Rebuild the Small-Block Chevrolet ". On page 70, it explicity states....."Make sure your machine shop uses a machine that uses multiple carbide cutters, NOT A STONE WHEEL OR SANDING BELTS, SINCE THESE ALTERNATIVE METHODS CAN RESULT IN POOR GASKET SEAL."

Here's a pic from that Thread and the first time run result, telling me that's exactly what happened. Obvious escapement of combustion and sealing ring issues. Cyls 5, 6, & 8 showed similar evidence. This was the smoking gun which then led me on the path of "Belt sanding" knowledge, after the fact.

PA060028.jpg

[Joe C.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Edward, Yes, when I did my very first diagnosis, in my 1st thread on this problem, I could see traces of the sealing ring escapement.

20 years ago, when I did my first Chevy engine rebuild, I bought the Book, "How to Rebuild the Small-Block Chevrolet ". On page 70, it explicity states....."Make sure your machine shop uses a machine that uses multiple carbide cutters, NOT A STONE WHEEL OR SANDING BELTS, SINCE THESE ALTERNATIVE METHODS CAN RESULT IN POOR GASKET SEAL."

Here's a pic from that Thread and the first time run result, telling me that's exactly what happened. Obvious escapement of combustion and sealing ring issues. Cyls 5, 6, & 8 showed similar evidence. This was the smoking gun which then led me on the path of "Belt sanding" knowledge, after the fact.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]50728[/ATTACH]

Can you refresh my memory? If you knew from the beginning that the decks are not flat, then why were they never resurfaced properly in the first or second rebuild? If it's the stamp pad you're worried about, you know that it can be avoided by a machinist who knows how to go around it. Did you stand next to the machinist and witness any surfacing of the decks?

IIWY, I'd bite the bullet. Find another machinist who can deck your block properly, and reassemble it yourself.

[Richard M.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Joe, Sure....Memory refresh follows.........

After I discovered the block was sanded, and pulled the heads, and measured inaccuracies in the deck surfaces, the block was returned to the machinist at his request to the owner, to correct the problem.

I recommended to the owner that he NOT return it to the original machinist. I brought the heads to a second machinist, recommended to me by a good friend, and had them reworked there, properly machined, as those were put on the sander originally by the first machinist as well. I recommended that the block be sent to the new machinist for correct rework. THis would be charged for accordingly. My advice was not taken by the owner. He decided to trust the original machinist.

On the 2nd rebuild, the original machinist machined the decks 0.008". He said they were then flat. The engine was assembled by him as a long block, warranted by him, then returned to us. At that time(Nov), the problem continued to show, but not as severe as the first rebuild.

We then pulled the engine again, in December, and the original machinist, who warranted his work, said he would work it yet again, being the 3rd rebuild. He sent it out for immersed pressure testing and passed. He then reassembled the engine. It was NOT resurfaced again. He ran it on a test stand and he considered it good after running three times for 10 minutes each time.

I did not set foot in that 1st machine shop after the 2nd rebuild experience, and only went back after the third rebuild when the owner asked for my support to perform the CG Dye test. The rest is what appears in my follow up post Feb 5 above.

We reinstalled the engine and it ran Wednesday for about 5 minutes, not time enough for reaching full operating temperature due to other scheduling issues. I will return to it for further tests over the weekend.

Rich

[Joe C.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Joe, Sure....Memory refresh follows.........

After I discovered the block was sanded, and pulled the heads, and measured inaccuracies in the deck surfaces, the block was returned to the machinist at his request to the owner, to correct the problem.

I recommended to the owner that he NOT return it to the original machinist. I brought the heads to a second machinist, recommended to me by a good friend, and had them reworked there, properly machined, as those were put on the sander originally by the first machinist as well. I recommended that the block be sent to the new machinist for correct rework. THis would be charged for accordingly. My advice was not taken by the owner. He decided to trust the original machinist.

On the 2nd rebuild, the original machinist machined the decks 0.008". He said they were then flat. The engine was assembled by him as a long block, warranted by him, then returned to us. At that time(Nov), the problem continued to show, but not as severe as the first rebuild.

We then pulled the engine again, in December, and the original machinist, who warranted his work, said he would work it yet again, being the 3rd rebuild. He sent it out for immersed pressure testing and passed. He then reassembled the engine. It was NOT resurfaced again. He ran it on a test stand and he considered it good after running three times for 10 minutes each time.

I did not set foot in that 1st machine shop after the 2nd rebuild experience, and only went back after the third rebuild when the owner asked for my support to perform the CG Dye test. The rest is what appears in my follow up post Feb 5 above.

We reinstalled the engine and it ran Wednesday for about 5 minutes, not time enough for reaching full operating temperature due to other scheduling issues. I will return to it for further tests over the weekend.

Rich

The machinist apparently sends the block out for decking. If he did that work in house, then he would have made sure that they were flat. I would "lose" him and find a quality shop, witness the decking and build it myself.

[Richard M.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

The machinist apparently sends the block out for decking. If he did that work in house, then he would have made sure that they were flat. I would "lose" him and find a quality shop, witness the decking and build it myself.

Joe, apparently he is incompetent, because he has the machine in his shop to mill blocks and heads. I suspect it's either way out of spec, or he doesn't know how to use it........or both. Trust me, I LOST him from day one, but it wasn't my hardware. He kept telling the owner...."I'll fix it." So he kept bringing it back.

Keep in mind, I was 3rd party in this rebuild. I came in late to work on the car, long after the hardware was sent to the machine shop by the owner. When we picked up the block and heads, I unwrapped the plastic from them, and rust pieces started falling everywhere from the heads. The heads and block weren't properly cleaned. I knew I was in trouble then. I spent many hours cleaning up his shoddy work. I wanted to bring everything to another shop to get re-done. Didn't happen.

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[Joe R.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Joe, apparently he is incompetent, because he has the machine in his shop to mill blocks and heads. I suspect it's either way out of spec, or he doesn't know how to use it........or both. Trust me, I LOST him from day one, but it wasn't my hardware. He kept telling the owner...."I'll fix it." So he kept bringing it back.

Keep in mind, I was 3rd party in this rebuild. I came in late to work on the car, long after the hardware was sent to the machine shop by the owner. When we picked up the block and heads, I unwrapped the plastic from them, and rust pieces started falling everywhere from the heads. The heads and block weren't properly cleaned. I knew I was in trouble then. I spent many hours cleaning up his shoddy work. I wanted to bring everything to another shop to get re-done. Didn't happen.

Rich,

That picture with all the rust debris is simply heartbreaking! I feel your pain. Good luck and may the force be with you!!!

Joe

[Richard M.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Joe, Thanks, somehow I persevered, advised, recommended, bit my tongue many times, then gave up the ghost.

Wanna get sicker....check these other head pics out.... When I brought them to the "New" shop, he couldn't believe the other guy did what was done(or should I say "Not Done").

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[Bill S.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Combustion gases entering cooling system True
Combustion gases bleed when using a 7lb radiator cap True
13lb radiator cap tested and bleeds off pressure at 13lbs True
Lower radiator hose blows off before 13lb radiator cap bleeds off pressure True

Based on the above it can be only one of 2 problems

the 13lb radiator cap for some reason does not bleed off pressure when hot

or

you have uneven pressure in the system concentrated near the lower radiator hose before said pressure gets to the cap.

[Joe R.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Rich,

Bring me a bucket!!! You should be eligible for sainthood by now!

Joe

[Richard M.]

Re: Combustion Gasses and Engine Coolant Violence

Combustion gases entering cooling system True
Combustion gases bleed when using a 7lb radiator cap True
13lb radiator cap tested and bleeds off pressure at 13lbs True
Lower radiator hose blows off before 13lb radiator cap bleeds off pressure True

Based on the above it can be only one of 2 problems

the 13lb radiator cap for some reason does not bleed off pressure when hot

or

you have uneven pressure in the system concentrated near the lower radiator hose before said pressure gets to the cap.

Bill, We could NOT understand at first why the lower WP hose would blow off so violently with the 13lb cap. I tested the cap with a Cap Tester.....Tested good and opens around 13 to 14. Before blowing the hose off, the Top Tank would get partially filled from the cap pressure release. There must be have been a HUGE CG bubble in the block, and the first time it happened, before redecking the block to "flatten" it , we had a 7lb cap on it and it overflowed out the top tank and it's overflow hose. That time, we tried the 13lb cap, and it blew the WP hose off.

This is what I surmised about why the hose blows of the LOWER WP hose......

The WP is a rebuilt original. BTW, we opened it up and it was fine, proper clearance, proper impeller(and direction), etc. This original WP has NO ribbed edge going around the perimeter where the hose connects. It's straight pipe, so to speak. Therefore, we concluded it is the weakest link in the cooling system if over pressured. It's a good thing because that $1000 Dewitt's dated Top Tank radiator could have blown open. Try to get that refund from Mr Machinist.

As it stands, Mr Machinist held the engine hostage from the owner last week. He forced him to pay a substantial sum to get his engine back. He said there was nothing wrong with it, and needed compensation for his work and sending it out for submersed pressure testing at a specialty test shop. I suspect that Mr Machinist poured a bottle of block sealer down the engines throat and ran it through it's necessary run/cool/run cycles before we got there last Friday. My CG Dye test failed 2 times when I tested it. When Mr Machinist tested it about 30 minutes later, it wouldn't fail. I still have to re-run my CG dye test here after engine reinstallation, but am fighting 2 defective repro fuel gauges at the moment before I run it again. Spent the whole afternoon at Bill Harrison's Speedometer (harrisonspeedometer.com) testing and verifying 2 DOA fuel gauges. When it rains it.......

Rich
p.s. she sure is pretty though

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