Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

[Jim D.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

If adding PS/PB is OK, how about changing the engine option? The car could have come with a higher HP version and it's easy enough to make it look like TFP.

If the change is undetectable, that car will receive no deductions. It's been done thousands of times.

[Michael W.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

If the change is undetectable, that car will receive no deductions. It's been done thousands of times.

True- with minor changes like PS/PB or major changes like engine size and HP. Doesn't make it right and I would take no pride in an award that involved cheating.

[Page C.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

AS I stated in post #9 above, all this is covered in the 8th edition Judging Reference Manual. It seems to be well written and easy to understand. What part to the section is NOT understood? If the members think it needs to changed to cover all the add on option you want to put on your car, I suggest you contact your regional representative and request a change in the JRM.

[Joe L.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

I will have to disagree with you on the orings, my breaks have never been better to me the lip seals are worthless and will eventually leak, been through it several times and the orings are the only way to go IMO.

Jim-----

I've heard all sorts of pro and con stories on o-ringed brake calipers. What I've never come to grips with is this (which I've mentioned several times before): o-ring caliper technology was well known when GM designed the Corvette 4 wheel disc brake system. For example, Bendix had used it. So, if the o-ring design is so great now, why didn't GM use it way back then? Instead, they used a design which was more expensive and much more problematic. I just can't believe that they would have done this unless there was a good reason for it.

[Joe L.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

AS I stated in post #9 above, all this is covered in the 8th edition Judging Reference Manual. It seems to be well written and easy to understand. What part to the section is NOT understood? If the members think it needs to changed to cover all the add on option you want to put on your car, I suggest you contact your regional representative and request a change in the JRM.

Page------


The keyword in that section of the JRM is "DETECTABLE". If a stock-type RPO addition is made to a car (except in those few cases where the option is coded into the VIN) it can be undetectable. Even if the installation is not done in a manner of TFP, the addition would still be, for all practical purposes, undetectable as an addition because any RPO originally on any car could be "debased" in some way over the years.

The fact of the matter is that there are LOTS of ways that cars may be different than when they left the factory. For example, no Corvette ever left the factory with stainless steel lined brake calipers. Does that mean that if one installs these on a car and tries to "pass off" the car as having an original brake system, one is "cheating"? What about internal engine parts? Lots of cars have had their engines rebuilt with other than original parts, even if the parts are functionally equivalent to original parts. What about engines that have been over-bored? Most rebuilt engines have been over-bored but not a single Corvette ever left the factory with a 0.010" or greater over-bore. Do the standards mean that someone trying to "pass off" an over-bored engine as original is "cheating"?

[Michael W.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

Joe-

Possibly if the components you mentioned were judged, many would think twice about risking the loss of points. More importantly, there's a huge difference between having an original caliper S/S lined in order for it to remain serviceable, and adding on an optional series of components that were not there at the factory.

[Joe L.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

Joe-

Possibly if the components you mentioned were judged, many would think twice about risking the loss of points. More importantly, there's a huge difference between having an original caliper S/S lined in order for it to remain serviceable, and adding on an optional series of components that were not there at the factory.

Mike------

I agree; there is a huge difference between using a repaired component and adding an option the car was not originally built with. Nevertheless, in the purist sense, a car using such a component is not as-built. Certainly, an over-bored engine is way out of original spec (i.e. it's no longer even a 327 or 427). If these things could be DETECTED, the car would suffer a judging penalty.The fact is they can't be detected so they get a pass.

Really, the only difference between doing the sort of things I mentioned and adding an option is a matter of degree. Both result in a car be offered as originally built and in NEITHER case is that true.

[Jim R.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

Jim-----

I've heard all sorts of pro and con stories on o-ringed brake calipers. What I've never come to grips with is this (which I've mentioned several times before): o-ring caliper technology was well known when GM designed the Corvette 4 wheel disc brake system. For example, Bendix had used it. So, if the o-ring design is so great now, why didn't GM use it way back then? Instead, they used a design which was more expensive and much more problematic. I just can't believe that they would have done this unless there was a good reason for it.

Sorry but I still disagree after myself and several friends being tired of the lip seals leaking and from several rebuiders we now have all gone to the orings and the problem has been solved, are the car manufacturers still using lip seals today?

[Joe L.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

....... are the car manufacturers still using lip seals today?

Jim-----

For at least the most part, no. Most of the seals I've seen in modern cars are what might be described as square cross section o-ring. However, there may very well still be modern applications using the lip seal design. My familiarity with the plethora of modern brake systems is fairly limited. One thing I can say: most modern systems use a floating caliper, single piston design which is much different than the Corvette fixed caliper, 4 piston system. The only applications that I know of today that use more than two pistons with a fixed caliper design are those used on high end sports cars with ultra, ultra high performance braking systems.

My point is this: since the o-ring type seal design was around at the time the Corvette brake system was designed, the design engineers had to be aware of it. So, why did they use the lip seal design which cost more and was more problematic? They must have had some reason for doing this. In addition, why didn't they change the design of the seals over the course of the use of the Corvette system? Certainly, the problems (e.g. leaking calipers, air-pumping) with the Corvette system had to have created a huge headache for GM. Yet, they never changed the design of the Corvette system; it remained functionally the same from 1965 to 1982. At any point along the way they could, presumably, have changed to an o-ring seal design, saved GM money, and saved GM a lot of headaches.

I'm not saying I'll never switch to o-rings myself. Leaking calipers is a MAJOR frustration for me. I just want to understand why GM never did it before I make my decision to switch. In other words, I know what I'll be gaining by doing this switch but what will I be giving up?

[Terry B.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

Hi Joe and Jim,

I recently replaced all 4 of my leaking calipers with the o-ring style. Here is what I was reading on a number of Corvette Brake websites:

1965-1982
Why go with O-Rings?
Lip seal design seals are used on 1965-1982 Corvette calipers. Lip seals have inherent problems. When they sit for a period of time they leak brake fluid. When they are used on a Corvette with out of spec rotors, spindles, loose bearings or a Corvette that is driven hard; they can actually suck air into the caliper fluid area causing a loss of brake pedal. This problem is called (by GM engineers) reverse air oscillation. Because of these problems, GM quit using lip seals in the 1982. O-Ring seals virtually eliminate all of these lip seal problems. If GM doesn't use lip seals anymore, why are you?

Calipers are still sleeved with a stainless steel sleeve and completely remanufactured using all new parts but instead of using the lip seal that come from GM these calipers utilize the O ring seals and O ring pistons. Each one is pressured tested and stamped to insure quality and comes with a limited lifetime warranty.

Terry

[Jerry G.]

[Jerry G.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

Right on Jim !

That's the best possible reason to add PS and PB. Your enjoyment of the car is, IMHO, more important than points. Just do it.

My '63 has PS and PB. It's a delight to drive.

Jim

[Michael W.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

Where do you draw the line?

Side pipes?
Big brakes?
Big tanks?
Z06 packages?
High HP engines?
SB and BB swaps?

[Jack H.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

Where do you draw the line?

Side pipes?
Big brakes?
Big tanks?
Z06 packages?
High HP engines?
SB and BB swaps?

For the record, I'm not into the judging side of the NCRS.

However, my understanding of the judging process is key to "Typical for Production", not verification of "born with". If somebody goes to the trouble and level of quality to add a non-original component and does it to the point of it being "typical for production" then so be it. This in NO WAY is saying that it is okay to misrepresent a car for personal gain and profit. To me there is a very clear difference.

Rare and high dollar cars do and should continue to receive a high degree of scrutiny, so I think there are already some fairly delimiting lines. I hope the NCRS never becomes the "originality police" as I fear that is a very slippery slope and hypocritical by nature, since I guess I'm pessimistic and doubt that some of purists cars are even as pure as they think and/or claim.

[Joe L.]

Re: Can PS or PB be added to a midyear without NCRS deduction?

.....and doubt that some of purists cars are even as pure as they think and/or claim.

Jack------


I believe are very large percentage of them are not.