Paint Color Judging

[Domenic T.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

OK, here goe's again.
In 1959 I wanted to paint my 54 chevy Roman red. I checked all the paint chips for the color and found a Cadilac color I also liked.
I found that they had the same paint code so I asked the vendor what the difference was? He said "color of primer", the primer changes the shade.
After that the first thing I did in match painting was to check the color of the primer.
As said in this post lighting can also be a factor, true.
What I have found was that, especially the color of primer, amount of coats, lighting, etc. can effect the original color.
Our C2's used a megenta/red oxide primer. I chose a white primer under my Goodwood Green so it wouldn't look black indoors.
Cut some slack on the shade because age, amount of coats, color of primer, and light can change the shade, not to mention the person mixing back then.
The new paints are unpredictable as the laws have changed so we need to cut some slack on the Shade as I am sure the original faded by now.

DOM

[Rob M.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

OK,
Just spent a lot of time posting and was told server was busy.
I am going to try again as my post was eraced.
Not complaining to our wonderfull servers here but is this our hacker??

DOM

More likely our new daily penetration test services provider running its test batch...

[Bruce B.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Are exterior judges ever tested for "color blindness" which is very common in males?

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

We (the judges) are forbidden to use paint chips or samples during judging -- At least that was the instructions during the most recent Judging Retreat, and IIRC Roy has written a column or two stating that. That is not a new or recent policy.

If you are comparing your paint to the sample folder that NCRS sells you are making a sad mistake. I can not tell you about your red, but the 1971-72 Warbonnet Yellow sample in that folder is not even a fair facsimile of what Warbonnet should be. That sample (or at least the one I saw) had way too much green in it and wasn't even close to TFP. I have no idea the measures, if any, that are taken to make those color samples the same from batch to batch or how those samples relate to the actual colors used by St Louis. I hope someone can tell us the scientific means that are used to satisfy those colors TFP. I am all ears.

The real irony of this situation is that NRS will not print a color Judging Manual for fear that people will compare the colors in that book to their car, but yet NCRS sells that color sample folder and so far as I know there is no disclaimer that it is not to be used for paint comparison. Things that make you go HHMMM.

You're right Terry, in fact the latest judging retreat is when I first started thinking about this judging issue. We were judging a Lemans Blue C3, and I remember the master judges chatting about the color in some very subjective terms like, it looks OK, looks pretty close, not bad, not far off, etc. Most of the time was spent on the metal flake since it is something you can judge objectively based on size, density, etc. And of course this issue is just a subset of the nightmare it must be to get your car painted and try to get the right color, since the standards and gatekeepers of what is TFP colors are nonexistent to use for comparisons.

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Now there's a thought, you do wonder about that too.

[John M.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Michael,
I had the same experience, same color at the New England Regional. The judging was indoors with some funny flourescent lightning. The car was painted by a guy who has done a lot of NCRS/Bloomington cars. The same car was judged outdoors the previous fall by equally competent judges with no deduction. It's a tough one and I'm stuck wondering what to do next. It's a 65 FI car and I was planning to try for a Duntov. Maybe I should have asked "to take this outside".... but I didn't want to make a big deal of it. Ended up with 95.9 Had 97.3 previously.

[Michael H.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

About three or four decades ago, a friend (Bob Zimmerman/Stretch) and I each had a 65 Nassau blue 396 conv with beautiful original paint. Both were well cared for cars that had been stored indoors and the paint was in excellent condition on both cars.

The cars looked like they were painted with completely different paint brands.

There's a long list of reasons why one car with metallic paint may not look the same as another using the same paint on a different day.

[Tim G.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

I had a low mile '67 green car with a hard top. The paint under the hard top window was a much darker color than the remainder of the car for some reason. I now have an original paint maroon '67 with a hard top. The same thing has happened to the paint under the hard top window on this car. Original paint in both places, but the color has faded differently.

[Paul O.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Bruce

I other item to check for possible color blindness would be 1 question on the test are you using a ED medication such as Viagra, etc. Which can cause in some individuals color blindness.

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

John Ballard mentioned, during our paint seminar at the Nationals in Hampton, that judges will give a 20% or so either way on color tint to take into account the original paint also varied inside a fair range of shade. Not sure what 20% either way looks like, and since the standards they have are in their heads and memory, I'm not sure how this really works, from judge to judge.

[Dick W.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Bruce

I other item to check for possible color blindness would be 1 question on the test are you using a ED medication such as Viagra, etc. Which can cause in some individuals color blindness.

Ask the bus driver, pilots are not supposed to use it for 24 hours prior to flying. Something about blue

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Bruce

I other item to check for possible color blindness would be 1 question on the test are you using a ED medication such as Viagra, etc. Which can cause in some individuals color blindness.

Uh Oh! I swear I was not under the influence of any drugs when I did my paint chip-color comparison.....

[Terry M.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

You're right Terry, in fact the latest judging retreat is when I first started thinking about this judging issue. We were judging a Lemans Blue C3, and I remember the master judges chatting about the color in some very subjective terms like, it looks OK, looks pretty close, not bad, not far off, etc. Most of the time was spent on the metal flake since it is something you can judge objectively based on size, density, etc. And of course this issue is just a subset of the nightmare it must be to get your car painted and try to get the right color, since the standards and gatekeepers of what is TFP colors are nonexistent to use for comparisons.

Not so Michael. The standards are called Bowtie Award winners. The way to match your paint is before the car is painted. Spray some test panels and compare them to known original (Bowtie) cars. That is what those Bowtie cars are for, and why we have that program. Once you have a repainted car the toothpaste is out of the tube and the owner has to ride the horse they chose.

[Bruce B.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Paul,

I should have anticipated your answer....

But seriously, are ant color recognition tests ever used by NCRS.
I know you shouldn't ever question a volunteer, but.

Bruce B

[Gene M.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

John Ballard mentioned, during our paint seminar at the Nationals in Hampton, that judges will give a 20% or so either way on color tint to take into account the original paint also varied inside a fair range of shade. Not sure what 20% either way looks like, and since the standards they have are in their heads and memory, I'm not sure how this really works, from judge to judge.

Let me explain this a bit. The judging of original paint is a bit softer than a restored paint job. But understand the variation is not as much as one might expect as far as point allocation. GM workers worked with a fairly constant gun pressure so the hue as far as darkness was fairly consistent. Higher pressures yield darker metallics. But in the case of the solid colors the run of paint color was fairly consistent in any one batch. Thus John's statement of the within "20% either way". If one repaints their car over something different from the factory red oxide primer than sure bet it is going to look different from original shade. As Terry said no color charts for judging, makes the judge's memory of what the color should look like necessary. And yes you as a car owner are relying on that. This is why NCRS has so much training and rules to follow regarding paint. It's not perfect but show me something better.

Judges training is for judges as well as owners. Both sides of the fence should expect the same sharing of information. I try to make owners aware of what judging is looking for while also sharing with owners how to make it looks as it should.

Keep in mind not every person be it judge or owner is working at the same level. Remember grade school somebody got an "A" while someone else got an "C or D". This may be why score sheets don't all look the same as comments are concerned.