Paint Color Judging

[Michael J.]

When my '67 was last judged at the regional, 16 out of 85 points was deducted for the color, the standard 20% deduction for a color tint that is not as factory original. It is Rally Red. There was not any explanation of the deduction that I remember.

I have taken all the seminars and talks by Ames and Ballard, and know paint chips are not totally reliable. But I have the color chip book by CTR that NCRS sells, and I can't for the life of me see any difference between the Rally Red chip color and my paint, no matter what light they are in. The question is, during the next round of judging I put the car through, should I have this book available to argue with the judges? Thanks for any opinions, and if you don't want to be on record about it, just send me a PM.

[Dick W.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

When my '67 was last judged at the regional, 16 out of 85 points was deducted for the color, the standard 20% deduction for a color tint that is not as factory original. It is Rally Red. There was not any explanation of the deduction that I remember.

I have taken all the seminars and talks by Ames and Ballard, and know paint chips are not totally reliable. But I have the color chip book by CTR that NCRS sells, and I can't for the life of me see any difference between the Rally Red chip color and my paint, no matter what light they are in. The question is, during the next round of judging I put the car through, should I have this book available to argue with the judges? Thanks for any opinions, and if you don't want to be on record about it, just send me a PM.

The booklet you are referring to uses ink, not paint, for the color chips and differ somewhat from original paint

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Well, the book says: "Although hundreds of books and articles have been written on the legendary Corvette, none have featured these colors using actual color chips to show the collector or prospective buyer the array of colors which were available from G.M. This brochure includes each of these exterior colors for 1963-9172 using precisely matched color chips "


And they don't look like ink, they are very shiny and hard chips. But they are not on fiberglas, so I suspect they are not totally exact, but maybe good enough to make a judge produce some evidence for a 20% deduction if necessary?

[Brian D.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Color samples aside, there should never be a deduction for any item without the cause explained, and preferably, how to correct it if you wish to do so. I've had sheets returned to me by team leaders after I hurried, and neglected to list reason for the deduction. Gene Manno showed us excellent examples of deductions/notations at the advanced school in VA.

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Color samples aside, there should never be a deduction for any item without the cause explained, and preferably, how to correct it if you wish to do so. I've had sheets returned to me by team leaders after I hurried, and neglected to list reason for the deduction. Gene Manno showed us excellent examples of deductions/notations at the advanced school in VA.

I agree, and I only wish all my judging sheets were as well explained/annotated as the ones Gene showed us....but sometimes, in the real world.....

[Don H.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

I wouldn't recommend it. At any Regional or National meet, at least one of your Exterior judges will be a very experienced and knowledgable paint judge. These judges use their knowledge and experience to make their best "judgement call" on the paint color, degree of metallic, and application. Depending on lighting, whether there are other red mid years near you, and other factors the call will go your way at some meets, and at others not. It is quite common for paint to take a minor deduct up to half value. If you like your paint with no intent to change it, then leave it exactly as is and don't worry about the judge's call. Don't make it adversarial by arguing issues like paint. The explanation should have been tint not TFP.

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

I can understand that the judges may be "experts" on paint color, but as a scientist, I appreciate objective judging criteria that can be shown be apply to the car in particular. I can understand about a paint chip comparison showing a tint difference, but for some one, now matter how "experienced", to just say, trust me I'm an expert and your paint is off, is hard to accept. Shouldn't there be something more objective to prove it? There is on most other items that are judged and defined in the judging guide, why not paint? Does it always have to be a subjective "judgement call" where years doing it trumps all objective evidence?

[Steve L.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

To be objective, you would need to have a color analyzer with a list of all colors that have been used on cars. Do you expect that level of objective evidence. Who is going to pay for this gizma and be qualified to use it at every judging event.

Keep in mind this is a hobby that we want to enjoy. I don't think arguing on a judging field is appropriate.

[Bill W.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Was this an indoor judging , if so what type of lighting ? Indoor lights can change a color more than you think .What brand and type of paint is on your car , Is it clear coated ? It should have been explained when you and the judges went over the sheets . Just be ready for the next time . I was a painter bodyman for 40+ years . We look at paint much different than most people .

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

I don't want to be too harsh, as a judge in other venues, I know judgement calls do have to be made. But in MCA, for instance, we have a paint chip book, very much like the one I have sold by NCRS by CTR, that shows people the color, and why deductions are made. We also did not use vague things like saying it is "NTFP", we explained the color is too dark, too light, too red, too orange, etc. and had the chip to compare and show the participants, it cut down on questions and arguments on the field. I agree, arguing on the field is not good, and so in my previous experiences I have kept my mouth shut, as advised, and thus not really understood what is wrong, I'm afraid. It is a fine line in trying to understand and gain experience, vs. pissing off the judges by questioning what they say based on experience vs. objective judging criteria. I just think it would be useful for a judge, if deducting 20% for the color, to explain the deduction in objective terms based on the color criteria, and then have a standard to show for comparison. Maybe that is just too much to hope for and I should just shut up again.

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

Was this an indoor judging , if so what type of lighting ? Indoor lights can change a color more than you think .What brand and type of paint is on your car , Is it clear coated ? It should have been explained when you and the judges went over the sheets . Just be ready for the next time . I was a painter bodyman for 40+ years . We look at paint much different than most people .

No, it was outdoors in the clear NM sunshine, maybe too bright.... Mine is not a clear coat, but an acrylic lacquer paint job that is a bear, since very soft, to keep from scratching and scuffing, many old swirl marks that had to be buffed out. In fact I was amazed that they didn't deduct for condition.... I am trying to prepare, since I have spent two years and many dollars correcting many other things (all objective issues) to get that 2 points for TF. I plan to ask more questions this go round, just hope it doesn't make them mad, I know that can be death.

[Wayne P.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

I would just like to add a comment and a question. Not all of us see the same color the same . Would it be appropriate to ask for a group of judges at the meet to discuss among themselves to get more opinions and then discuss their conclusion with the owner?

[Michael J.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

I think that is a great idea Wayne. Add to that issue of different people seeing a color different, with the reliance on a "memory" of what it should look like, since a standard color is not in front of them, and IMO it tends to magnify the subjectivity.

[Terry M.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

We (the judges) are forbidden to use paint chips or samples during judging -- At least that was the instructions during the most recent Judging Retreat, and IIRC Roy has written a column or two stating that. That is not a new or recent policy.

If you are comparing your paint to the sample folder that NCRS sells you are making a sad mistake. I can not tell you about your red, but the 1971-72 Warbonnet Yellow sample in that folder is not even a fair facsimile of what Warbonnet should be. That sample (or at least the one I saw) had way too much green in it and wasn't even close to TFP. I have no idea the measures, if any, that are taken to make those color samples the same from batch to batch or how those samples relate to the actual colors used by St Louis. I hope someone can tell us the scientific means that are used to satisfy those colors TFP. I am all ears.

The real irony of this situation is that NRS will not print a color Judging Manual for fear that people will compare the colors in that book to their car, but yet NCRS sells that color sample folder and so far as I know there is no disclaimer that it is not to be used for paint comparison. Things that make you go HHMMM.

[Domenic T.]

Re: Paint Color Judging

OK,
Just spent a lot of time posting and was told server was busy.
I am going to try again as my post was eraced.
Not complaining to our wonderfull servers here but is this our hacker??

DOM