Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original)

[Roy S.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

The only standard that really matters is your own. Both are important but I personally like authenticity over appearance therefore would compromise too much in judging. Makes it simple too, it is or it isn't. Still love a Top Flight car to look at though. BTW, that nice Red on Red, L88 that Naber Brothers did and was on Mechum Kissimmee ($450,00 no sale) had the wrong front grills for a 68 with its VIN.
Dale

I’m pretty sure the grills are not the reason it failed to sell

[John H.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

EDIT: I continued to do research on the matter. Much to my dismay, the reproductions parts seem to be getting pretty good points at judging. I guess I have been mixed up all of these years. I thought we were a Restoring Society, not a buy it out of a book and bolt it on society. I have a lot to learn, I am going to try to learn as much as I can about these matters. If any of this is true, how do we change it back?

Monte -

The system doesn't need to be "changed back" - you haven't bothered to read about it or understand it, so you're confused about the standard. The standard in Flight Judging isn't about certifying that the parts are THE original parts the car was built with - that's handled in a completely different judging system (Star/Bowtie judging, where absolute originality is ALL that matters, with NO condition judging).

Section 9 in the Judging Reference Manual says it all, particularly this sentence:

This judging specifically does not mean a successfully judged part is the original factory-installed part, but does imply it appears as though it could be.


Suggest you get a copy of the Corvette Judging Reference Manual and read about the Flight Judging standard, the process, and the philosophy behind it, and you won't be so frustrated.

[Tim G.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

I really didn't understand CDCIF until I attended the judging retreat last weekend. It cleared it all up and makes it a better judging system. I'll get to test it April 6th at our local Chapter meet. As far as reproduction parts, I just ordered some for a very original, never judged '67 that I just got. Things like belts, clamps, and hoses have all been changed and I'm not about to search out originals since the car will be driven. Some parts we're willing to pay up for originals, some parts we have to make the decision to use reproduction parts. This doesn't lessen the hobby.

[Dick W.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

If it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it probably is. Original or reproduction doesn't make a hill of beans in my mind. I have refused to pay the ludicrous money people pay for original parts when the repro is identical appearing. But then again I quit judging and do not have a car to be judged

[Monte M.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Gentlemen,
I do not think there is anything wrong with reproduction parts. As stated earlier, if they are accurate, noone would know they are reproduction.
Don, I have a very early 1963 fuelie, so I understand about rare parts.

My point in all of this started out with the idea of a Top Flighted Car. One would assume it is a reasonably original car. Is that not the original idea of a Top Flighted Car? Ask the average guy what a Top Flight Car is. There is a very good chance he will say that it is a very original Corvette.

Even to me, now hearing a car is a Top Flight car means far far less. I am just saying, if it is a good enough reproduction to pass judging, unnoticed, so be it.

So, any part that is similar is accepted a passing Top Flight Judging, even if it only gets 10% of the possible points. This is a very slippery slope.

It just makes no sense that, by points given, that an average attempt at a reproduction part can be even 1% original.

Top Flight means Kind of original, it appears.

[Monte M.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

I am going to educate myself on the matter.

Dick, I agree. Original or reproduction does not matter. Especially if the reproduction is a good reproduction.
My original point was: how can a part that is a noticeable reproduction get originality points?

Lastly: YES, i KNOW i STIR THE POT FROM TIME TO TIME, BUT ISN'T IT NICE TO FEEL ALIVE.

I know I have a lot to learn. Thanks for taking the time to get the information out there to not only me, but the other member like myself that have been around forever, but do not understand how everything works.

Terry, Do you want me to quite ranting? lol
Monte

[Roy S.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Gentlemen,

My point in all of this started out with the idea of a Top Flighted Car. One would assume it is a reasonably original car. Is that not the original idea of a Top Flighted Car? Ask the average guy what a Top Flight Car is. There is a very good chance he will say that it is a very original Corvette.

I would suggest before you get to bold in your predictions of what a Top Flight does or does not mean, that you put a car on the judging field and attempt to earn the award. It appears you have never participated in that endeavor.

Gentlemen,
Even to me, now hearing a car is a Top Flight car means far far less. I am just saying, if it is a good enough reproduction to pass judging, unnoticed, so be it.

Again I would suggest before you continue you prognostication, you put a car on the judging field and attempt to earn the award.

Gentlemen,
So, any part that is similar is accepted a passing Top Flight Judging, even if it only gets 10% of the possible points. This is a very slippery slope.

Before you expound on what the judging rules extrapolate too you should attend a few judging schools and earn some judging points. It appears you have never participated in that endeavor.

Gentlemen,
It just makes no sense that, by points given, that an average attempt at a reproduction part can be even 1% original.

Top Flight means Kind of original, it appears.

Finally I suggest it might all come to fruition for you if you would put a car on the judging field, attempt to earn the award and attend a few judging schools and earn some judging points.

[Gary H.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

I had a sour taste in my mouth last year after going through flight judging for the first time with my 69. This organization prides itself in originality, but nice original cars get huge point deductions for the condition of the original components. A car with a major restoration done with parts out of a catalog will likely score higher than a nice original survivor. I lost points for having a rusty POP.

I also went through a PV recently and know firsthand how hard it is to pass one of these with original components. I had a failure in the 11th hour before the PV with my headlight washer anti siphon valve and was forced to order a cheap reproduction part and pay $40 for express shipping. Guess what...it didnt work. I had to repair my original.

Gary

[Roy S.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

I had a sour taste in my mouth last year after going through flight judging for the first time with my 69. This organization prides itself in originality, but nice original cars get huge point deductions for the condition of the original components. A car with a major restoration done with parts out of a catalog will likely score higher than a nice original survivor. I lost points for having a rusty POP.

I also went through a PV recently and know firsthand how hard it is to pass one of these with original components. I had a failure in the 11th hour before the PV with my headlight washer anti siphon valve and was forced to order a cheap reproduction part and pay $40 for express shipping. Guess what...it didnt work. I had to repair my original.

Gary

[Monte M.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Gary,
That is my point. An original car may score less because it has aged original parts instead of new reproduction parts.
Roy,
I have started the judging process. That is where some of this came up. And thank you for the advice. I will try my hand at a survivor rather than flight judging on my 72.
I do, now, understand the idea of what "Originality" means. Basically it sounds like a better term might be" How close to original" I get that is what the translation is, but it is very misleading.

Part of the reason I throw these things out there like this is not to upset people. It is to get the information out there. We were eight guys sitting around asking these questions. It came up because I mentioned my intent on heading tward judging. There was probably 150 years of Corvette ownership at this table. None of us understood this stuff.

I brought it to the forum, not just to help myself, but to get it out there so the average NCRS member might have a better understanding as well. So, my intent was to inform, not frustrate.
Thanks guys.

[Mark D.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

After reading this lame thread, I'll let Vince do my talking...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=lbNidYYGjic&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DlbNidYYGjic

[Jack H.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Sorry to detour this...but...just my 2 cents...

Wow, where are some people finding these reproduction parts that are so good they can't be discerned from original??? Most stuff I'm seeing either looks like crap, fits like crap, works like crap, or some combination of said craps.

[Gary H.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

I personally wouldnt change out anything original on my car to make it more shiny and go for an award. I was just crunching numbers this morning with my old judging sheets to see if I could pull enough points together to score a 97 raw and go to the nationals for a duntov. I think that I will have to put it off for another year. I have so many deductions for condition I dont know if it will bee possible.

Gary

[Michael J.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

I personally wouldnt change out anything original on my car to make it more shiny and go for an award. I was just crunching numbers this morning with my old judging sheets to see if I could pull enough points together to score a 97 raw and go to the nationals for a duntov. I think that I will have to put it off for another year. I have so many deductions for condition I dont know if it will bee possible.

Gary

The condition guidelines are pretty simple too:

Dealer Prep New: 0% deduct
Minor aging/Damage, a part/component that can be easily restored or repaired: 1-25% deduct
Moderate aging/damage, a part/component that requires substantial restoration and/or repair: 26%-50% deduct
Severe aging/Damage, a part/component that may not be restorable or repairable: 51-75% deduct
Missing completely: 100% deduct (plus of course all the originality)

[Monte M.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Guys,
The idea of this thread was to get information out there that is not known by the average member.
You guys did what I wanted. We have a ton of hits on a subject that a lot of our member did not know about. I include myself.
Now, I think our membership, along with myself, has a much better understanding of what the goals are and how to get there.

Stir the pot every once in a while.
Monte