Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original)

[Monte M.]

I have a question to clear up a conversation a few of us were having dealing with reproduction parts. If a reproduction part is similar to original, do we get any points for it. Originality= That would make no sense if it is NOT original. Condition=That would make less sense.

The discussion was on 1971 and 1972 big block valve covers. The reproduction are similar, but it is easy to tell the difference at ten feet away. Even twenty. There are six or eight differences at a glance. Even more if you really look at them. They say they are NCRS accepted in their ad. What does that mean?

Because originals are so hard to find, what is the deduction, if any for the re-pops. I have been told a few different things, so, I figured one of you guys could clear it up.

Thanks,

Can a reproduction part get condition points. If so, why try to find originals.
EDIT: I continued to do research on the matter. Much to my dismay, the reproductions parts seem to be getting pretty good points at judging. I guess I have been mixed up all of these years. I thought we were a Restoring Society, not a buy it out of a book and bolt it on society. Please, if I am wrong, someone correct me. It appears that if I do it right, before long I might be able to Top Flight a car from a catalog. What does restore mean? Put on parts that are close because the real ones are too hard to find?

Being a judge must be very difficult. I may have been wrong in assuming the reproduction parts on my car, would and should get NO points. (If you can tell they are reproduction)I get it. Some parts are very hard to find. If my car does not have those rare parts, it is not as original as yours.

How can a reproduction part ever get condition points? Does it get originality points because it looks kind of like the original parts? I have a lot to learn, I am going to try to learn as much as I can about these matters. If any of this is true, how do we change it back?

[Reba W.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

For several years, NCRS has used a matrix judging guide.

Quoting from the 8th Judging Reference Guide:
An item is assessed based on the extent to which it conforms to the standard in the following areas: configuration, date, completeness, installation, and finish. (p.26)

Each area gets 20% of the allotted originality points, and reproduction parts are generally going to have one or more of these correct.

As long as any item receives 10% of the total points assigned for originality, the condition will then be judged. There are a few major items (tires, glass, paint, etc.) spelled out in the Judging Reference Manual that could receive no credit and therefore lose all condition points also.

No item is rejected simply because it is a reproduction or GM service item. The judge must assess in which of the five areas it is unlike the original part and how much the deviation is.

[Terry M.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Monte,

Have you attended a judging school or read the NCRS Judging Reference Manual

[Harry S.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Monte,

Have you attended a judging school or read the NCRS Judging Reference Manual? Those are the places that have the answer(s) to your rant.

NCRS judges originality based on:
C = configuration
D = date
C = completeness
I = installation
F = finish

Of the originality points available for the part(s) each of the above items gets 20% of those originality points. If there are more than one item on the line -- "rocker covers & fasteners" is the line on early C3 score sheets -- the judges decide what portion of the available points go to the rocker covers and how much goes to the fasteners. Of the number of points they decide are available for the rocker cover they then decide how many of the above features are different from original and how different they are. That will result in a deduction amount.

Please note that at no time did I mention the word "reproduction." The fact that you may know the part is a reproduction makes not one whit of difference. Does the part differ in configuration? Then the deduction is 20% of the part of that line that is for the rocker covers. Is the date different? In this case you can infer the date is later than the car it is on by the difference in configuration. Another 20% deduct. If the judges decide the configuration difference betweent he part they are looking at and the original part is minor they can deduct less than 20% fr configuration.

Terry, are we sure about the section I made bold?

[Michael W.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Originality= That would make no sense if it is NOT original.

Remember- the judging is based on appearance of originality. There's no attempt to establish authenticity. Big difference.

[Gene M.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

What Terry says plus I want to add to the usage of NCRS judges originality based on:
C = configuration
D = date
C = completeness
I = installation
F = finish

The C = configuration is the key if the part is nothing close to the original it does not matter what date, how
complete, installation right or wrong, correct finish or not the points will be lost in the originality column. Judges will make partial configuration deducts based on correctness or deviation from it. Working with a 20% margin is typical for lesser deviations. Then the 10% rule applies to the condition column as was mentioned in previous posts. The source of the part is not a judges concern only the correctness as viewed compared to original or the parts deviation from original.

Car owners should become more familiar with the judging reference manual in the explanation of the CDCIF system NCRS applies to each part of the car.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

What Terry says plus I want to add to the usage of NCRS judges originality based on:
C = configuration
D = date
C = completeness
I = installation
F = finish

The C = configuration is the key if the part is nothing close to the original it does not matter what date, how
complete, installation right or wrong, correct finish or not the points will be lost in the originality column. Judges will make partial configuration deducts based on correctness or deviation from it. Working with a 20% margin is typical for lesser deviations. Then the 10% rule applies to the condition column as was mentioned in previous posts. The source of the part is not a judges concern only the correctness as viewed compared to original or the parts deviation from original.

Car owners should become more familiar with the judging reference manual in the explanation of the CDCIF system NCRS applies to each part of the car.

Too bad NCRS dosn't use the same rules for paint. I'm just sayn

[Roy S.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)



From: Eighth Edition of the Judging Reference Manual, Section 3, starting on page 25

start manual text 9. ORIGINALITY SCORING
NCRS Originality Scoring is based on a part, component part, or area appearing to the judges to comply with our Judging Standard by using their knowledge, experience and available information contained in the appropriate year Technical Information Manual & Judging Guide. This judging specifically does not mean a successfully judged part is the original factory-installed part, but does imply it appears as though it could be. Likewise, in judging the originality of an area, such as body paint, a successful judging does not mean the existing paint is that which was originally applied at the factory, but does imply it appears as though it could be. Generally, a component part judged to appear as a complete original item will receive full originality credit, regardless of its condition.

All originality deductions for items not covered in Section 4, Standard Deduction Guidelines will be made because of discernible differences from original as defined by CDCIF.
CDCIF shall be recognized as the process for determining the extent to which a component being judged conforms to our judging standard.

Originality: The extent to which a component being judged conforms to the judging standard in the following areas:

C Configuration - manner in which components are shaped, molded, cast or machined. Part
number, casting mark/logo should be considered part of the configuration

D Date - degree to which the component date conforms to the logical sequence of manufacture
and typically observed GM supply sourcing intervals. Date may be distinguished by means other than being stamped, cast, etc., into a component

C Completeness - degree to which the component is totally present

I Installation - degree to which the component is installed correctly

F Finish - degree to which the component surface finish, gloss, texture, color, tint and type
conform to our judging standard

Once this difference has been noted, originality deductions are to be made based not on the fact the item is a GM service replacement, a GM-licensed reproduction or an aftermarket reproduction component. The item must be judged based on the overall degree of correctness as installed on a given car.

10. ASSIGNED ORIGINALITY & CONDITION POINTS
As an additional aid to judging consistency, NCRS Judging Score Sheets divide and assign portions of the originality and condition point totals to specific items in a given section. See Section 4, Standard Deduction Guidelines.

11. 10% ORIGINALITY RULE
In order for an item or area to be scored on Condition, it must first be judged and scored on Originality. If, after scoring, the remaining credit is less than 10% of the assigned Originality points (deduction is greater than 90%), that item or area shall not be judged on Condition and will be scored as a full deduction in the condition column. In judging line-item sections that cover several different parts, this will apply and affect those components so judged, individually. end manual text


Eighth Edition of the Judging Reference Manual, Section 4 standard Deductions, item 13, page 34

start manual text 13. GM-SERVICE REPLACEMENT, GM-LICENSED REPRODCUTION PARTS AND NON-OEM PARTS
There is a wide variation in 1) original, 2) later issue, and 3) present-day configuration of items listed and sold by GM as service replacement, GM-licensed reproduction, and non-OEM parts. It is therefore difficult to place a consistent, fair deduction on each item. All items that are correct and indiscernible from original as installed will receive no originality deduction even though a judge may know, or thinks he/she knows, they are not original components. There can be no deduction because a judge thinks an item looks too new to be an original item. See Section 3, item #9.

Originality deductions are not to be made based on the fact an item is GM-service replacement, GM-licensed reproduction or non-OEM component. The item must be judged based on the overall degree of correctness as installed on a given car.

Items that appear reasonably correct as installed will be evaluated for originality (and possible deduction) per CDCIF in Section 3, item #9.

Items that are significantly dissimilar as installed will receive a Standard Deduction of 100% for Originality per Section 3, item #14. Team Leader concurrence is required. end manual text

[Roy S.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Ken I'm just sayn, there is a standard deduction for paint. standard deductions trump CDCIF, so the standard deduction is used.

"All originality deductions for items not covered in Section 4, Standard Deduction Guidelines will be made because of discernible differences from original as defined by CDCIF.
CDCIF shall be recognized as the process for determining the extent to which a component being judged conforms to our judging standard."

[Monte M.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Terry,
I just got together with my local chapter to attend the next meet as an observer. So, yes, I have begun, but now need to order the books to start reading on the matter of judging. The ball is rolling, but just getting started.

Some of that seems so backwards to me. I get we are trying to keep a lot of people interested, but what expense to the original idea of this hobby.

How does a part get an "Accepted by NCRS" in its ad, yet it is clearly a reproduction. I do not think that is be very honest.
I have a lot to learn, but am very disappointed to see how far off track it appears we have gotten.
Again, I understand we are doing this for the masses, not the purists. Everything seems to revolve around money. The real world gets in the way sometimes.

Once again, Thank you guys for the great information. Within too long, maybe I will understand more and my learning curve will quite ending up on here.
Keep up the good work guys.

[Donald H.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

I'm no expert, still somewhat of a newbie. But with that said, if it weren't for reproduction parts, in my opinion there would be fewer and fewer C1 restorations. It is well and good for those who own C3 to say they would NEVER put a reproduction part on their car. I suspect there are still enough C3 NOS parts around that they are not break the bank expensive. Or guys who have been in the hobby for 30 plus years and were smart enough to buy and keep spares when the prices were reasonable. But try to find a correct original type oil cap for a 58-60. Or, an original air cleaner that isn't junk. Like the majority of folks doing restoration to NCRS level, I would much prefer in order a part that is original, restored original, NOS (some of which are also crap), then lastly a correctly configured reproduction. But what I have found, at least restoring my 1960, some parts are so unique that they are next to impossible to find, or if you can find them, they are expensive to the extreme. And may of the reproductions still fall short and get judged accordingly.

Monte - to your question how does a part get "Accepted by NCRS". Or you sure of those exact words? I purchased a reproduction fuel cap (another 58-60 item that is nearly impossible to find), and their claim is that the part has pass flight judging. So all that means is that based on the standards Roy stated in Post #10, the fuel cap passed judging and no official NCRS acceptance.

Don

[Roy S.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Terry,

How does a part get an "Accepted by NCRS" in its ad.

There is no procedure whereby a part is: accepted by, approved by, or anointed by NCRS

It might be true that the part was judged at an NCRS event and there may have been points taken off or there may not have been points taken off. In the real world if a reproduction is so good you can’t tell it’s a reproduction it is not going to lose points, anything less than that will.

Because we are the National Corvette Restoration Society does not mean we can’t evaluate a part on the judging field for originality and condition.

Our system is waited approximately 17% operations, 54% originality, 29% condition. That says that typically an original part in very good condition could lose less points than a reproduction part in excellent condition.

[Michael J.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

Our system is waited approximately 17% operations, 54% originality, 29% condition. That says that typically an original part in very good condition could lose less points than a reproduction part in excellent condition.

True, and it is good to remember in flight judging that a very good reproduction part in excellent condition can score higher than an original that is in very poor condition.

[Dale C.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

The only standard that really matters is your own. Both are important but I personally like authenticity over appearance therefore would compromise too much in judging. Makes it simple too, it is or it isn't. Still love a Top Flight car to look at though. BTW, that nice Red on Red, L88 that Naber Brothers did and was on Mechum Kissimmee ($450,00 no sale) had the wrong front grills for a 68 with its VIN.
Dale

[Michael J.]

Re: Question for judges (Reproduction vs Original BB Valve Covers)

I think we all have our personal biases about condition vs. originality, the judging matrix helps, and discussions with your partner and lead judges. At the recent judging retreat, I'm afraid my bias was on condition. There was a great car in very nice condition (not a Duntov type), it had the original early '70s air filter. It looked like a potato chip and obviously could never be used in service, just too old, worn, and deteriorated. But some judges would hardly touch it for condition, being very impressed with the fact it was "original". I hammered it on condition, so we had a great discussion that allowed us all to be more fair and balanced. It's the beauty of the flight judging system.