Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Judging is a difficult thing. I am obviouslly not an NCRS judge. In judging other things the question of originality is asked more of in a black or white issue. Looking at the lines are they original or not. If not, you loose your points.

In this lets look at the overall package individually, here is some food for thought.

I have a black 63 coupe. Do I loose more points for it being red rather than blue. My point is, looking at it like this, blue is almost black so I should only loose a few point. Orange being so far away from being black, is of course a loss of a lot of points.

I am trying to show consistency in how things are looked at. The brake lines are NOT original. The blue paint is not original. The lines are very close in the big picture, so we have to let it slide.
Now, painting the car orange is like putting copper brake lines in. If you put copper brake lines in that look exactly like originals, you deduct for the material being wrong. Does copper loose the same points stainless does?

I dought I got my point across, but all I was trying to say is the question was not, "How original are the brake lines/" it is, "Are the brake lines original?" In answering the second question, they are not original. To loose half your points might be justified in looking at it like that.
Is my blue paint original? The color is off a bit.
Is my orange paint original? It is laid down just like the black, but the color is off.

Thanks for even reading this one guys.
I think I have bent your ear enough for one day.

Thanks again for everything you do for the hobby.

I hope at least you can see the difference in my question.

Take care,

Monte

[Terry M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Judging is a difficult thing. I am obviouslly not an NCRS judge. In judging other things the question of originality is asked more of in a black or white issue. Looking at the lines are they original or not. If not, you loose your points.

In this lets look at the overall package individually, here is some food for thought.

I have a black 63 coupe. Do I loose more points for it being red rather than blue. My point is, looking at it like this, blue is almost black so I should only loose a few point. Orange being so far away from being black, is of course a loss of a lot of points.

I am trying to show consistency in how things are looked at. The brake lines are NOT original. The blue paint is not original. The lines are very close in the big picture, so we have to let it slide.
Now, painting the car orange is like putting copper brake lines in. If you put copper brake lines in that look exactly like originals, you deduct for the material being wrong. Does copper loose the same points stainless does?

I dought I got my point across, but all I was trying to say is the question was not, "How original are the brake lines/" it is, "Are the brake lines original?" In answering the second question, they are not original. To loose half your points might be justified in looking at it like that.
Is my blue paint original? The color is off a bit.
Is my orange paint original? It is laid down just like the black, but the color is off.

Thanks for even reading this one guys.
I think I have bent your ear enough for one day.

Thanks again for everything you do for the hobby.

I hope at least you can see the difference in my question.

Take care,

Monte

Monte,
The question is NOT "are the _________ (insert part) original?" Rather it is "are the ________ TFP (Typical Factory Production)?" We make no assessment of originality on the Flight Judging field.

Now with that said; carry on with your discussion.

[Steven B.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Terry is correct Monte. Whatever part or area is being judged the question is does it appear to be as the factory would have done it, or TFP. In the case of a paint color change in your example there is documentation, trim plate, that the car came a certain color. If the color was changed points are deducted. If the car is a '62 or earlier, no trim tags, and the color was changed and the paint appearance and color are TFP then no point loss. We know the brake line material the car left the factory with. As mentioned before if an apparent Not Typical Factory Production situation exists on a relatively minute area that does not warrant a one point deduction then a dot can be placed by that area and notation made. If there are two or more of these found, lets say in the chassis area, then they can (optional) be accumulated and a single point be deducted if warranted. These cars are complex to judge with numerous things to check. That is why it takes so long to judge an area and why there are often limits to the number of cars to be judged in a class. I encourage each member to judge or OJ as you learn alot about our Corvettes and have the satisfaction of meeting and becoming friends with some knowledgeable and great people. Monte, you owe it to yourself to judge or OJ at least once. You will have a ball. I waited way too long to judge and now know how much fun I missed out on all those years. Steve

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Steve,

To tell the truth some things have happened over that past months to allow me to maybe head in that direction. The very early 63 prototype fuel injection stuff is where I have spent a lot of time. Maybe more than any body else at this point. I know there is not much call for that, but jusy doing all the research was very rewarding.

My true interest is with the eailer C3's and that might be a fun direction. I did attend an even with a friend where I walked with him as he assisted a real judge. They asked him because of his 67, 400, Automatic, A/C, car. A lot of little things go with that car only. There was one being judged that day. I really had a good time as I had a lot of hours into that 67.

I know just enough about these cars to be dangerous. What would be my first step in getting certified or being allowed to be on the field. I have a car very close to being ready, so I would be heading that direction anyway.

I have been build them for thirty five years. I have done three frame off restorations and many minor frame on dress-ups. Most of this back in the late 80's and early 90's. My 63 just got a body again.

I think I would really enjoy it. Thank you for pointing me in that direction.

What is my first step?

Monte

[Steven B.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Hi Monte! To get started I suggest you join your local chapter, order the judging manual and manual covering the year you want to judge, and sign up as a judge or OJ at the next Chapter Meet. Also, call members of your local chapter and ask questions. Most of us will talk for hours. With your experience and knowledge you have alot to share and teach the rest of us. Check the NCRS Store at the top of the page and get your credit card out! Steve

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Steve,

Thank you for the advice. I have been doing some searches to see what I can gleen from the forum.
You guys have been around a long time. I am not sure what my knowledge level is compared to you guys, but I do look forward to talking to a hand full of you.

I really appreciate the vote of confidence about my experience and knowledge, but I guess time will tell on how much I have to offer.

In the world of Corvettes and off-roading (my other real passion) an investment of a couple hundred dollars, at the NCRS store, to start down the road of a new hobby / passion, is a pretty minimal investment to get started.

I do not know if you have ever followed any of my earlier postings, but I have dabbled in quite a few things, but would like to be more of an expert in a few select areas.

Of the thirty or so guys I run with, I am the technical one of the bunch, so I think I will really get a kick out of taking a stab at this.

Who would be the best person, besides yourself, to pick their brain. Maybe someone out here in Northern California / S.F Bay Area?
EDIT: I have a number of the judging guides.

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Steve and maybe a few others,
I just went to the cabinet to go through it and see what books I actually had in it. Of course the JG manuals for the cars I own right now, all the older versions, The Vette-Vues (remember those) and a handful of others.

My point in writing this is, the one book I pulled out that really caught my eye was my Corvette Black Book. A very useful book in its day.
Corvette Black Book 1953-1992

I guess I got my moneys worth out of it. Maybe it is time to buy an updated version.

Thanks again for the advice.
Monte
EDIT: tHAT IS THE NEW ONE. tHE OLD ONE WAS A LOT SHORTER.

[Terry M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Monte,

All you have to do to judge or OJ is to register for the event and when registering check the boxes on the form to say that you want to judge and what class and area you want. There is another place to check Judge or OJ. To judge be sure to register more than a month or two early because a list of the people who sign up to judge is sent to each National Team Leader for him to select from. That list goes out about a month before the meet to allow for communication time. At the larger meets (Regional or National) you will need a lot of experience to break into those judging slots -- and the team leader will likely have to know your skills before you will be selected. At a Chapter meet you will have more success at being selected, and those time constraints mentioned above often don't apply.

There is a system of judging points which will indicate roughly your experience level. That whole system is laid out in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual, and is too great to spell out here. The more points you have the more likely you are to be selected to judge at the larger meets.

TO OJ all you have to do is register for the me4et and show up to the OJ meeting (usually about a 1/2-hour before judging starts, but check the time with the meet judging chair if it is not posted on the meet agenda) and indicate which class and area you are interested in.

If you do not get selected to judge at a Regional or National you can always attend the advanced Judging Seminar for some more tips, but you will get more experience by OJing than from the AJS.

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Terry,

Thank you for the input. Earlier this evening I went ahead and contacted my local chapter so I can get acquainted with that bunch. That is most likely a good starting point for me. If this turns out to be something that I am interested in taking further, I will just go through the right channels and work my way up to where ever it takes me. I know there is paying dues in this kind of thing and I have no problem doing that.

Is the judging reference manual a good starting point and if I really like it go ahead and get the discs?

Thanks again,

Monte

[Terry M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Terry,

Thank you for the input. Earlier this evening I went ahead and contacted my local chapter so I can get acquainted with that bunch. That is most likely a good starting point for me. If this turns out to be something that I am interested in taking further, I will just go through the right channels and work my way up to where ever it takes me. I know there is paying dues in this kind of thing and I have no problem doing that.

Is the judging reference manual a good starting point and if I really like it go ahead and get the discs?

Thanks again,

Monte

Yes the JRM is a good place to start, and you might want to attend a judging school. Most Chapters have Judging Schools over the Winter and into Spring to get folks "tuned up" for the Summer judging season. If after a time or two you find you enjoy judging -- then the CDs are a good next step. I wouldn't mind seeing you at a Regional Advanced Judging Seminar as well. All those events will get you some judging points that will work toward getting you into the big leagues, so to speak.

[Monte M.]

Re: Brake Lines - armor & fittings' colors

Terry,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. If anything comes up that you think might be good for me, let me know.

I am sure after a month or two I will know what and where to look for notices. But, until then a little direction might be just what I need.

I will order the book today and if the local chapter gets back to me, I will be sure to ask them for any pointers on what to do.

Look out. You just might get stuck with me some day.

Have a good day. We are one blessed group of people, I would have to say.

Monte