Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

[Paul J.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

...Anyone want a 38 yr one owner, 66, L-36 with 44K org miles and brand new lacquer paint and rebuilt motor with 1,000 miles on it..............................I guess i have to get it towed to my classic car mechanic and forsee a big bill coming....

Easy, Keith, easy. It sounds like you need to walk away from this for a little while. Remember, this is supposed to be fun. Nothing kills fun like a deadline.

Take heed in what Joe says, always shim your starter.

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[Don H.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Doesn't sound like you have touched your solenoid though you mentioned it earlier on. I had the exact same problem as you, with the new battery suddenly going stone dead, and smoking hot battery cables, and jumper cables. My old starter was also newly rebuilt. My thought was solenoid, but my more mechanically inclined friends said it could not be.
I bought/installed a replacement one anyway, and my problem was solved. Shorted out solenoid? No clue. They're pretty cheap. You might try it. Seaside is getting close.

[Philip P.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

I can understand the shimming of the starter, but what would the type of sparkplugs have to do with this problem? As for the solenoid I had one with a cracked plunger and it would stick, I had never seen this before. Also is the shimming more of a big block problem, I have never had to do this on a small block but then maybe I have been very fortunate.
Phil

[Duke W.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

I need to get something straight.

As I understand it there is no short with the ignition switch at OFF or LOCK. Correct? Do the "hot wired" circuits like the lights and cig. lighter function properly?

What about when the ignition is in the ON or ACC position? Same questions.

If the "short" only occurs when the ign. switch is turned to the START position, then that implicates the starter/solenoid assembly or possibly the ignition circuit especially the "start ballast bypass" since the coil is directly wired to the battery during cranking through the solenoid R terminal. Check the entire igntion circuit including the coil for a short to ground.

If the problem appears to be isolated to the starter, you should remove it, diassemble and go through all the electrical checks in the COM or any service manual that has the starter overhaul procedure.

Duke

[Thomas H.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

I can understand the shimming of the starter, but what would the type of sparkplugs have to do with this problem? As for the solenoid I had one with a cracked plunger and it would stick, I had never seen this before. Also is the shimming more of a big block problem, I have never had to do this on a small block but then maybe I have been very fortunate.
Phil

I was thinking that with incorrect plugs installed, there may be some piston to plug interference. I don't know if that was what Terry was alluding to or not, but that is what jumped into my tiny brain when he mentioned plugs.

Funny, with the exception of the 60 I have, all of the "muscle" cars I own of have owned in the past have been big blocks and I have never had to shim a starter. I suppose I've been lucky too.....

I'm still pointing my finger at the starter.

Keith, I can give your blue big block a nice home with two other blue Corvettes. I promise it won't get lonely........

Stick with it, you'll get it figured out.

Tom

[Keith B.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Gentlemen: Thanks for all your ideas and tips. I have not done anything further today, I'm taking a deep breath.

- Joe, shims what are your referring to and why shim the starter, never been done even since John Pirkle rebuilt my starter in 2005. what and where is shimmed..........I will do this once I get more info.
- Plugs, I dont have them out right now but when the motor was rebuilt last year, I removed my AC Delco and I believe they are a hotter plantinum tip plug that were allot more $$$, but car started and ran great with these plugs before ??
-
-Duke: With ign switch off and external battery connected - no short or issues. With Ign switch turned to "on" and power applied coutesy lights, lighter, and clock works as normal. When "key engaged and turned partial crank and Nothing but instant heat back up to battery cables and gets very hot. ACC good. I have not checked the entire ign system other than the key switch and wires are normal. I have glanced at top of Coil and nothing looks bad. I do have a pointless system electronic system ( no points and condenser) in there with a hotter coil for the past 5 yrs. Starter has been removed and bench tested 5 times and brought back to shop and it bench tests and ignities and starts right away...............Car did turn over with starter when PLUGS where removed last night ,. When plugs re-installed - no crank , not turning over and instant heat to cables.............(((

[Duke W.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Okay, so we've established that the "short" only occurs when the ignition switch is is the START (crank engine) position. That significantly limits the possibilities.

Look at the wiring diagram. When you turn the key to the START postion, the purple wire from the ign. switch to the S terminal energizes the solenoid pull in coil. When the plunger pulls in, contact is made between the B terminal and the starter wiring, and the armature spins up. It also shorts the B terminal to the R terminal, which provides battery voltage directly to the coil, bypassing the ballast resistor.

A short to ground at either the S or R terminal would cause the problem you describe, so the number one suspect IMO is the solenoid. Note that bench testing the starter will not detect a short to ground at the R terminal, but it should reveal a shorted solenoid pull in coil.

The other possibilities are a short in the ignition circuit or even the ign. switch, but I think you said you already tested it. If not, do so.

You can check solenoid ground faults as follows:

1. Disconnect the + battery cable at the battery.

2. Remove the wires from the S and R terminals of the solenoid.

3. Check for short to ground at both terminals. The S terminal should read a small resistance equal to the solenoid pull in coil resistance - a couple of ohms - but if the solenoid pull in coil is shorted this should have shown up on the bench test. That leaves the R terminal. It should measure infinite to ground.

4. With the electronic "points" switch shorted and the + battery cable disconnected, have a helper turn and hold the ignition switch to the START position and measure red (?) wire to ground (The wire that connects to the R terminal. I'm not sure of the color. My '63 wiring diagram says "V"). It should read coil resistance. Do the same with the purple wire - the one that connects to the S terminal. It should be infinite.

It's just a matter of following what circuits are energized when the ign. switch is in the START position and checking those circuits and terminals for ground faults.

Run these checks and report back.

Duke

[Thomas H.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Shop indicated starter was all gumed up and rubbing on case. ...

Keith,

Re-reading your original post this jumped out at me. In order for the starter armature to be rubbing on the case (I'm making the leap that they found the armature rubbing) some or all of the bushings and/or case bolts would have to be worn or loose to allow the armature to move laterally inside the housing.

(Before I go further, let me say, I'm not a starter expert and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night).

The armature is held in place by the end plate and the nose cone. If either are worn, or the armature ends are worn, when the bendix drive is engaged and the load of the engine is put onto the armature, there may be enough force to move the armature side ways making it contact the housing inhibiting free rotation. When the plugs are removed from the engine, there would be minimal load on it not affecting the rotation.

Or it could be a winding issue within the armature that when under load, it does not generate a strong enough field to rotate but draws excessive current leading to hot wires.

Just some more thoughts as it is a slow day at the office........................

Tom

[Terry M.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

I was thinking that with incorrect plugs installed, there may be some piston to plug interference. I don't know if that was what Terry was alluding to or not, but that is what jumped into my tiny brain when he mentioned plugs.

Funny, with the exception of the 60 I have, all of the "muscle" cars I own of have owned in the past have been big blocks and I have never had to shim a starter. I suppose I've been lucky too.....

I'm still pointing my finger at the starter.

Keith, I can give your blue big block a nice home with two other blue Corvettes. I promise it won't get lonely........

Stick with it, you'll get it figured out.

Tom

Yes, Tom, that is exactly what I was thinking. Of course the testimony that these are the same plugs that it ran fine with back when argues against that.

It is possible that the starter is drawing enough current to over-duty the battery cables. That will smoke the cables (especially the repops) real quick. There are figures in some of the Delco Remy starter material for "locked rotor" current, and as I remember it is in the hundreds of amps. The cable to the starter will not take that current for long without burning up.

With the plugs in the starter has to overcome compression so it will draw maximum amps at that time. It is also possible the solenoid contacts are dirty/burned and adding resistance to the circuit and adding to the current draw. I assUme this is a hi-output starter -- does it have a spacer at the base of the front of the solenoid, where the feed from the lower terminal of the solenoid goes into the starter case?

We often forget that all the direct drive (non-gear reduction) starters work on the principle that they are overloaded under the best of circumstances, and they survive because they only operate for 30 seconds or so before the engine fires. If it doesn't fire, something is going to break -- whatever the weak link is. In this case the weak link is the cables.

[Terry M.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Keith,

Re-reading your original post this jumped out at me. In order for the starter armature to be rubbing on the case (I'm making the leap that they found the armature rubbing) some or all of the bushings and/or case bolts would have to be worn or loose to allow the armature to move laterally inside the housing.

(Before I go further, let me say, I'm not a starter expert and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night).

The armature is held in place by the end plate and the nose cone. If either are worn, or the armature ends are worn, when the bendix drive is engaged and the load of the engine is put onto the armature, there may be enough force to move the armature side ways making it contact the housing inhibiting free rotation. When the plugs are removed from the engine, there would be minimal load on it not affecting the rotation.

Or it could be a winding issue within the armature that when under load, it does not generate a strong enough field to rotate but draws excessive current leading to hot wires.

Just some more thoughts as it is a slow day at the office........................

Tom

[Larry M.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

It is possible that the starter is drawing enough current to over-duty the battery cables. That will smoke the cables (especially the repops) real quick. There are figures in some of the Delco Remy starter material for "locked rotor" current, and as I remember it is in the hundreds of amps. The cable to the starter will not take that current for long without burning up.

We often forget that all the direct drive (non-gear reduction) starters work on the principle that they are overloaded under the best of circumstances, and they survive because they only operate for 30 seconds or so before the engine fires. If it doesn't fire, something is going to break -- whatever the weak link is. In this case the weak link is the cables.

According to the Chevrolet Overhaul Manual, the BB starter will typically pull in excess of 70-99 amps during normal cranking. The "locked rotor amps" for this same starter is 410-480 amps. This is the momentary current draw when the starter first begins to turn over the engine, or if the engine will not rotate. This amount of current for any length of time will definitely heat up (or "smoke") the OEM battery cables.

Larry

[Philip P.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

I wish I could remember the number of times I switched the stud and washer over in a solenoid, Terry is right about that. I think what I would do at this point is pick up a starter and cables at a parts store, all indications with that much current draw it is the starter or solenoid, anything else would fry the smaller wires if the battery cables are getting that hot. thats just my 2 cents.

[Timothy B.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

I second the shim idea, put one or two in there and give it a try as it only takes a minute to test. If the engine spins without resistance and all other electrical is fine the starter/flywheel mesh has to be suspect.

[Paul J.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Joe, shims what are your referring to and why shim the starter, never been done even since John Pirkle rebuilt my starter in 2005.(((

Keith, did you not see the picture in Post#16? That's what can happen when a heavy eccentric load is put on a flywheel repeatedly (like a misaligned starter). Note that the break is outside of the bolt holes.

The bendix can press hard against the flywheel, causing a lot of resistance and pushing the flywheel backward. This also can wear the bushings out of the bendix drive and the armature, which I believe was one of your problems.

In many cases with this condition, the bendix will jam in the flywheel and not turn. Obviously, bench testing will not reveal this condition.

[Keith B.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Car is Running !!!! To all those above and private PM of assistance to all I sincerely appreciate all your advice. Now your wondering what the heck was the problem.....well. I had my Restoration Battery tested by the shop that repaired my starter today with showing volts and amp draw. Although it showed over 12v on my little tester my RB fluctuated today from 5v to 12v . However, for many of the tests of elimination posted above I kept using a heavy duty jumper cables and my Trailblazer SUV AC Delco - apparently that was not giving me enough amperage to turn over my HD starter. So this am based on best advice in the archives I went to Walmart, threw my two Restoration Batteries ( over $500 in 5 yrs) into the corner of garage and purchased an Maxx 24 EverStart 875CCA battery. Still had all wires off ALT and Starter and hooking up new battery. Starter turned perfectly. Hooked up all wires at ALT and Starter, turned key and those HD field coils that John Pirkle added to my Delco Remy never started so good. My 66 started Instantly, re- started it 4 times in disbelief. No Heat, no burning just the roar of the 427 again.

I'm a little embarrassed to even report that it was battery all this time and never thought that jumping it would not turn her over. To begin with the starter was definately gummed up but it was in fact repaired correctly with a new solenoid and now with this Made in USA battery, I will take the points hit and know that my car will start. As for these Restoration batteries, allot of wasted money, two of mine did not last more than 5 yrs. Again -thank_you to all who assisted me . Nothing like the stunning good looks of a Midyear starting on a nice sunny day!!!