Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

[Keith B.]

1966 427/390 car, recently painted and putting the exterior parts back on car. Car has started and worked flawlessly after paint job. Have restoration battery in car and tried to start car last week and car would not turn over, only click, click, click from starter. Thought I had a issues with restoration battery. Tested and showed 13.7 v. Took correct org starter out and had it serviced. Shop indicated starter was all gumed up and rubbing on case. Original rebuilt by John Pirkle ( miss you John) and had it rebuilt and serviced and bench tested. Installed today. Hooked up battery - all good. Inserted key and turned ignition on "NOThING", no click, no crank, dead. Jumped live battery from my 07 Vette AC Delco using jumper cables. Almost immediately both + and - cables on my 66 got "REAL HOT" and cables started to smoke and heat up fast. Thought I had an issue with my restoration battery, so I pulled battery and ran jumper cables direct from a good battery direct to + and - cables on my 66, again my 66 cables got real "HOT" and car would not crank. I pulled ignition switch and did notice that my double "pink" wire was loose from the ignition switch but otherwise all was good. No hot wires at switch or key or smell. Checked Lectric Ltd wire diagram and Dr Rebuild colored diagrams that I have and made sure, 100% the starter was connected correctly. Confirmed. I HAVE A SHORT SOMEWHERE BUT WHERE ??? When battery or power is hooked up, everything is good, interior courtesy lights come on, clock works, etc. No fuses blow. Then when you turn the key "on" the battery cables "fry" and get "HOT".

The car started perfectly 5 or 6 times since my paint job and nothing has been altered. Since the issues started I have re-installed my tail lights and horns, and other non electrical items on the exterior. The resistor and coil is the same and not been touched. I may remove the starter again and take it back, but they are a very reputuble shop and assured me it was working after it was serviced. My Dad is an electrician and we examined everything today for over 5 hours and are perplexed. An obvious ground fault as the battery cables are burning up but where ?? Starter issue, solenoid ?????

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.....

[Joe R.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Keith,

Charge the battery and rebuild the starter (correctly this time).

JR

[Larry M.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Keith,

Charge the battery and rebuild the starter (correctly this time).

JR

Agree. It sounds like a starter/solenoid internal problem. With all the amps you were pulling through the jumper cables, it would have smoked or melted any other wire(s) in the electrical harness if they were the problem. It can only be a direct starter short to ground.

Larry

[John H.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Keith -

The fact that nothing happens until you turn the key to the "on" position has me stumped too - there is no internal activity or applied voltage or load in either the solenoid or the starter when the key goes from "off" to "on"; that only occurs when the key goes to the "start" position. That logic aside, if the battery cables heat up as you noted when you turn the key to "on", there's obviously a dead short of some kind in the starter or solenoid, as the engine harness beyond the solenoid isn't affected.

[Timothy B.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Keith,

Is there any chance the black ground wire from the wiper motor and heater blower is on the wrong starter terminal. This wire correctly attaches to the starter mounting bolt for ground but it has been know to be mistakenly attached to the solenoid.

[Thomas H.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Keith,

One of the things I did before connecting the battery to my 60 was I used a small 10 amp or so, 12 volt power supply and fed voltage into the red wire that connects to the starter (without the starter connected). This way I could check every circuit for function prior to connecting the battery. This way I was able to limit the current to the car thus limiting any potential risk of fire due to a short circuit being fed by a battery with tons of available current.

You could also use a battery for this test and just put a 15 amp fuse in line with it. When you turn the key on, the fuse shouldn't blow. If it does, then maybe pop all of the fuses from the fuse box and start adding them one by one to find the offending circuit.

That being said, I'm still not convinced that your starter or the wiring to the starter is not to blame in some way.

Let us know what you find and make sure you limit the current during your testing. It doesn't take long to fry harness wires.

Tom

[Keith B.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Gentlemen: Thank you so much for the advice and tips, I sincerely appreciate the assistance. I have been working for 1.5 yrs getting my L-36 ready for May NW NCRS Seaside , Oregon and now this happens. I have the car freshly painted in org Silver pearl lacquer, bumpers rechromed, Rear suspension and Diff rebuilt and re-installed, etc etc.

So this am, my Dad ( an electrician) and I re_examined everything. We bench test my re-built Starter and to my surprise it work flawlessly. So now what ? I definatley have a short somewhere. Reviewed wiring diagrams and noted that starter solenoid "hot" + black/Red wire to center to solenoid goes to horn relay and branch off to Alternator Connection ( boot) GRD. To our surprise pulled of blk boot of Alternation grd and wire is cyrstalized/green and showing signs of being "hot" and stiff. Insulator on GRD screw is dried up and cracked. It appears that I "MAY HAVE" found my grd fault. I pulled ALT and internals look good but GRD area and insulator definately shorting out and "burnt". Thus I'm taking in my ALT tomorrow to get checked out and serviced. The started is Fine. As for other tips noted above .............

The blk grd wire Timothy was 100% installed on the "Neg" grd of the bottom of the starter per diagram. I will take the starter back also just to have them double check for any "dead spots" or issues while they look at my fried insulator on the Alternator ground contact.

Given what I discover today gentlemen and from my 66 diagrams is I had a ground fault at the alternator when I applied the "key' to "on" does it any of this make sense ??

Guys, again much appreciated................so frustrating but I think once I get the starter dbl checked and ALT fixed and put in new battery I'm cautiously optomistic it might work.........thanks Keith.

[John H.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Reviewed wiring diagrams and noted that starter solenoid "hot" + black/Red wire to center to solenoid goes to horn relay and branch off to Alternator Connection ( boot) GRD. To our surprise pulled of blk boot of Alternation grd and wire is cyrstalized/green and showing signs of being "hot" and stiff. Insulator on GRD screw is dried up and cracked. It appears that I "MAY HAVE" found my grd fault.
Given what I discover today gentlemen and from my 66 diagrams is I had a ground fault at the alternator when I applied the "key' to "on" does it any of this make sense ??

Guys, again much appreciated................so frustrating but I think once I get the starter dbl checked and ALT fixed and put in new battery I'm cautiously optomistic it might work.........thanks Keith.

Keith -

There's no "boot" on the alternator "GRD" (ground) connection - just a black wire with a ring terminal and a nut. The RED 12V "HOT" charging wire at the alternator has a black rubber "boot" that covers its ring terminal and nut, and a flange on the red plastic insulator sleeve around the stud retains the boot. Photo below isn't a '66, but the alternator and connections are the same. If you have the red wire on the "GRD" stud, that's a dead short of full battery current to ground, and if the black wire is on the larger stud in the red plastic insulator, that's another full battery current short to ground.


Alternator10DN_1.jpg

[Terry M.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

I knew there was an electrician involved someplace. The term "ground fault" is not an automotive term, but is used extensively in the electrical industry.

[Keith B.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Terry/John: My mistake and John you are absolutely correct. My car started and ran perfectly before and nothing had been alterted of changed on my Alternator. What I meant to say is my red ign wire and rubber boot is/was connected to the "BAT" terminal as it should be and blk wire to the "GRD". What I cannot understand is why my red ign wire that is attached to a blk wire from the POS + Solenoid and branches out to the ALT connector was corroded and nearly melted. I will start with getting my ALT serviced and checked, I have repaired the ALT BAT wire by cutting off a small piece and now checking it backwards for any further damage. DBL check starter at shop and try to install both units with a new battery. Hate to say it but I started having issues with my Restoration/Attinque battery not holding a charge and not cranking, tried to charge then determined starter motor was rubbing armature on case -so repaired it and now the BAT terminal on the Alternator for repair. I will advise when I get ALT repaired this week...........and thanks to all for the assistance..............k

[Bill W.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

We had almost the same problem on a 67BB getting ready for a PV. The original starter was a little slow on a hot start but OK the rest of the time. We sent it to John Pirkle for a rebuild ,he said he could make it a little more heavy duty for us. When it came we installed a new set of repro batt. cables and the rebuilt starter. When we tried it it smoked the cables . We installed the old incorrect cables and it was fine . John said sometime the repro cables wont handle a heavy load ? I hope this helps .Bill

[Keith B.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Update and absolutely stumped.................

- Pulled starter for the 4 th time and bench tested it with external battery. Runs perfect and engages properly.
- Re-intalled in car, took battery out and ran external battery with jumper cables direct to 66 + and - , car wants to engage and fan turns 1/4to 1/2 turn, starter does NOT fully turn car over, and battery cables begin to heat up Again.
- Pulled Starter again and ALT and had them serviced and checked at very reputable shop. Bench tested and load placed on starter, engages and spins instantly at a high rate of speed. Working perfectly outside of car.
- Re-install starter again, leave + hot off ALT and leave all wires off starter. Put + battery cable connected to a 12v good battery DIRECT to + on starter and a good ground on starter bolt. Run another wire off starter center "hot" + and touch "S" switch of solenoid. Car gives a partial crank and again battery cables heat up rapidly. Power removed and car fan/crank seems locked or frozen.
- Final test as per mechanic. I removed all 8 spark plugs. They are dry and light brn in color and look good. Lower car and leave all wires off starter and ALT. Place direct power via cables onto starter directly and CAR TURNS OVER AND SOUNDs PERFECT AS IT SHOULD. OBVIOULSY IT DOES NOT START AS IT NOT WIRED BUT CRANKS AND STARTER SOUNDS GREAT AND FAN/CRANK SPINS SEVERAL TIMES.
- CLEAN UP PLUGS AND PUT BACK IN. HOOK UP ALL STARTER WIRES AND ALT WIRES. TURN KEY TO "ON", COURTESY LIGHTS AND CLOCK COME ON AND EVERYTHING LOOKS NORMAL. TURN KEY OVER TO START AND NOTHING BUT A ONE SEC CRANK AND CABLES AND BAT HEAT UP AGAIN.
-GO BACK TO STARTER DIRECTLY WITH POWER AND BAT AND TOUCH STARTER WITH WIRES STILL ATTACHED AND TRY TO IGNITE. SPARK, NO CRANK AND INSTANT HEAT TO CABLES AND CAR DOES NOT TURN OVER AT ALL.

MY MECHANIC felt that with the plugs out that if car cranks and turns over that if gas/water came out of one cyclinder I have a big problem but when the car did turn over without the plugs no liquid was observed at any cyclinder hole. I even eliminated my newer Lectric Ltd dated battery cables and went direct to starter and same issues - hot and will not crank car over - only when plugs out of car !!!

Anyone want a 38 yr one owner, 66, L-36 with 44K org miles and brand new lacquer paint and rebuilt motor with 1,000 miles on it..............................I guess i have to get it towed to my classic car mechanic and forsee a big bill coming..................does any of this make sense guys.......................thx Keith BC Chapter NCRS..........

[Joe R.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Shall I send you a shim kit and a mechanic? You can purchase a shim kit at Autozone, O'Rileys, etc. and any shade tree mechanic can fix your Corvette. Take your mechanic out under a large oak tree and shoot him in the head or privates, then hang him!!!!!

JR

[Terry M.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Tell us more about those spark plugs. Brand and heat range, please.

[Thomas H.]

Re: Electrical issue - car will not start -ground fault.......

Tell us more about those spark plugs. Brand and heat range, please.

I'd be interested to hear about those plugs also. You might want to try installing them one at a time, then cranking.

Shims may help also. Simple enough to try.

I'm still not sold on the starter being 100% up to the task. Quick story.....

I had a starter "custom built" by a local guy for use in my 67 BB Camaro race car. The engine had a lot of compression (13.25:1) and needed a robust starter. I was promised the custom one would turn a house and it tested real well in his shop. Installed it, took the car to the track. Fired up the car a few times in the pits, seemed ok. Drove to the staging lanes and waited for about 30 minutes for our turn. Tried to fire up the car and it cranked about 1/2 turn then nothing. Thought the battery went dead (couldn't be the starter.........). Ran back to the pits and stole the battery out of our Suburban. Put it in the car and tried to start it. It turned very slow until the battery cables started to smoke. Put the car back on the trailer and went home. Took the starter back to the builder and told him it was a POS. Went and bought a new gear reduction starter and never looked back.

That being said, I'm still not sold it is not a starter issue, but lets get some plug info and try the shims first.

Keep us posted.

Tom