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The Graying of NCRS

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  • Michael J.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • January 27, 2009
    • 7118

    #61
    Re: The Graying of NCRS

    OK guys, lots of nostalgia in this thread, and as a tribute, here is what it was like when I was a 20 something, including the car, and with $5/gal. gas on the way.....
    Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New Mexico

    Comment

    • Jim W.
      Frequent User
      • November 1, 1994
      • 94

      #62
      Re: The Graying of NCRS

      I have been a member for about fifteen years. I restored a C3 and had it judged. It felt great and I keep understanding more about the NCRS with each year. However, most of the people we need to join or have an interest in the NCRS are limited in how they become a member and what they do with it. Any time you have a doubt, watch any Mecum or Barrett-Jackson Auctions, these cars cost upwards of $50.000 and even one that sells for the amount is going to need a full retoration which can cost another $200.000 and you'll see the true cost of joining. This hobby has been for the last ten years has been one in which only those with disposable incomes that exceed $250.000, 500.000 or more, OR have inherited a C1 or C2 and instead of viewing it as an asset, decided to investigate what kinds of things you can do or in general have some closer association with said early model Corvette/Corvettes. We are in many ways a very secretive group. We have 0, zip, NO, advertising. If a relatively young man or women they have to hunt us down and see if they fit. Everything is up to them to be adventurist to become a member, and in the case of a women, she's looking at an Old Rich mans club. Filled with individuals who are more accustom to Champagne rather than spring water.

      We live in an era where any young folks are in a bind to gather up 20% for their first home, not for a Classic Automobile much less a car that is as ancient to them as is the second world war. Most only know of the Corvette is if they like watching GT racing or the twenty four hours of La Mans. We don't even welcome a newcomer very well. It's expected they know of the linage of their freshly bought or inherited 50 year old automobile. Cars that have as feeble a shifters in a world of GPS and hands free voice commands. Most young people have more interest in their latest, greatest cell phone than a old car hidden away for the world and them. This is in short and rich old mans club. The dynamics of our organization that isn't going to change anytime soon. The only segment that has a pray of hope is the C4 era cars. But once again where are the young going to find replacement parts that will stand the battery of judging ? and the activities that some of the very young that we need aren't going to appeal to them. What is needed is education. and education the young members might be weaned on. Like the history of the Corvette with a real live model on display. So the education is supported by a 3 dimensional object they can exam and develop a interest in. But on our current course, the only news we have to shear if the obituary section of the morning newspaper. On the bright side the country has never had as much sheer wealth in the economy as we have today. So perhaps some of the wealth will funnel down to those secect few who are emarnored with the Corvette and like to look into it's past. Otherwise we and our ranks will slowly dwindle as the years pass.
      Each day is a gift, respect it, and enjoy it as if it were the last!

      Comment

      • Wayne W.
        Extremely Frequent Poster
        • April 30, 1982
        • 3605

        #63
        Re: The Graying of NCRS

        Originally posted by Mark Donnally (13264)
        Paul, I knew after reading a couple of your posts your as sharp as a tack but, you don't have (that I can see) any judging points. Are you attending any meets? A guy like you should be involved because you could positively influence the direction of the organization. Again, I mean no disrespect, I realize some are not physically or financially or for whatever reason, able to get out and attend meets. Thing is, if this TDB is your only experience with NCRS well, that's not all there is.

        Although this may be unfair, I don't place a lot of weight on people's remarks that are not actively participating or that are fairly new members that haven't had the time to get out and really get their feet wet. I'll also say that anyone that feels compelled to voice a complaint about the organization (which I fully support your right to do so) should perhaps take a moment to also consider if they have had a positive NCRS experience and maybe comment on that also.
        Mark,

        Many years ago when I was more active in the organization, I was glad when the Judging points recognition system was started. It was my belief at the time, that we were in need of judge training, and a better more knowledgeable judges. That has been successfully implemented with the judging schools and retreats etc. But, I have come to dislike the judging points as a measure of a judges credentials. I think it is used too much for bragging rites and is not an adequate measure of a judges abilities. I know of countless people who are long time members that know more about these cars than many high level NCRS judges, but they may have never judged at an event. Thus they have no points, but I would still value their experience and want them on my team. I am a prime example. I have run a shop for more than 40 years, doing repairs and restorations on the early cars. I am a Level One judge, with most if not all of that coming from the stack of judging certificates that I turned in when the system first started. I go to the event as a tourist. I have seen more of these cars than care to admit. I don't really need to see another one.

        What I am trying to say is, don't discount someones opinion because they are new members, are not highly active, or have few judging points. They may actually be very knowledgeable and could be an important asset to the organization.

        Comment

        • Dick W.
          Former NCRS Director Region IV
          • June 30, 1985
          • 10483

          #64
          Re: The Graying of NCRS

          Originally posted by Wayne Womble (5569)
          Mark,

          Many years ago when I was more active in the organization, I was glad when the Judging points recognition system was started. It was my belief at the time, that we were in need of judge training, and a better more knowledgeable judges. That has been successfully implemented with the judging schools and retreats etc. But, I have come to dislike the judging points as a measure of a judges credentials. I think it is used too much for bragging rites and is not an adequate measure of a judges abilities. I know of countless people who are long time members that know more about these cars than many high level NCRS judges, but they may have never judged at an event. Thus they have no points, but I would still value their experience and want them on my team. I am a prime example. I have run a shop for more than 40 years, doing repairs and restorations on the early cars. I am a Level One judge, with most if not all of that coming from the stack of judging certificates that I turned in when the system first started. I go to the event as a tourist. I have seen more of these cars than care to admit. I don't really need to see another one.

          What I am trying to say is, don't discount someones opinion because they are new members, are not highly active, or have few judging points. They may actually be very knowledgeable and could be an important asset to the organization.
          I dang sure would want you on my team if I were a team leader, however if I was a car owner trying to pass something bogus off, I would want you to be in another state
          Dick Whittington

          Comment

          • Mark D.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • June 30, 1988
            • 2151

            #65
            Re: The Graying of NCRS

            Wayne,

            Apparently, you ain't getting what I'm trying to say. I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this thread. Nothing good ever comes from getting involved in these emotional subjects.

            All I'm saying is I am apparently having too good a time to see all the obvious negatives around me. I am going to strictly limit my posting here henceforth. I'm on the 68/69 and 70-72 JG rewrite teams so hopefully that will keep me busy in a more constructive way.
            Kramden

            Comment

            • Robert R.
              Very Frequent User
              • May 31, 1975
              • 358

              #66
              Re: The Graying of NCRS

              Once you see that comercial, check out the Gulf comercial that shows the Gulf gas truck from the sixities and how a town stopped cold when they decided not to allow outsiders come in. Somehow all was fine til the cars stopped running...and that drilling offshore drilling was necessary to keep things normal.

              But the premiss was that the town did not allow outsiders to come into their town....

              Comment

              • John P.
                Expired
                • February 18, 2010
                • 160

                #67
                Re: The Graying of NCRS

                I have been a member on and off for years, manily due to being out of the country for the wars, I didn't have time to work on my car or have the spare money to do it.

                Now Im about to leave again sometime in the near future to Afghanistan as a Civilian Contractor.

                Ill be 38 next month and I have grey hair even in my beard! But I am nick the new guy I know my way around cars but I do not know how to make everything work and I hope to.

                I have a 68 427/400 4 speed with alot of paperwork and a lot of options in Cardovon Maroon so I have a pretty rare care and I want to make it right but it seems hard to make it right when people are busting out a magnifying glass to look at some parts.

                Comment

                • Wayne W.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • April 30, 1982
                  • 3605

                  #68
                  Re: The Graying of NCRS

                  Yea, We all face that dilemma. Every time we post, we take the chance of being misunderstood. Things very seldom actually come out like they are intended. Don't let anything I said limit your posting.

                  To get back on topic, I for one ,am not in the camp of the nay sayers that think our cars will not be appreciated in years to come. That everyone will be buzzing around in their ricers, and no one will have interest in the cars and NCRS.


                  There may be some changes, but there will always be that element that appreciates the mark. I see it every day. I have a `66 convertible daily driver, and I never go anywhere that I don't get the thumbs up, the toot of the horn, the hey look at that. These are not coming from the old farts, they are coming from the young whippersnappers. And as soon as they can afford one, they will be in the market. The pricing may suffer some adjustment, but what the heck, after all they are just Chevy's, not the golden goose that we sometimes think they are.


                  For example, the Model T, the Model A, and other similar cars, dropped some in price as the old folks who grew up with them and remember the days died out, but, they have made a recovery of late. The people that are buying them and keeping the interest are nowhere near the age of remembering them on the road, but that doesn't deter their enthusiasm. You wouldn't believe the difficulty of driving one of those cars on todays roads, and am not talking about speed and road-ability. I am talking about the shear joy and enthusiasm of the public of seeing them on the road. My `31 and `33 Cadillacs will do nicely with speed even on the interstate, but the gawkers that ride along side, the telephone picture takers, and the horn blowers, make driving them hazardous. The interest and obsession is still there.

                  What I am trying to say is, hang in there, make it as easy as possible for new members to get started and old members to stay, get off the high horse, and the cars and the club will be around for a long time to come.
                  Last edited by Wayne W.; March 26, 2012, 12:08 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Monte M.
                    Expired
                    • January 1, 1991
                    • 687

                    #69
                    Re: The Graying of NCRS

                    There have been some very good points made here. I am 52 and considered somewhat young in this hobby. I have been in the hobby for over thirty years and seen many changes. As the years go by and we start losing more of our members to old father time, the market will be flooded with cars. My eighteen year-old feels that when he is thirty five or so, that there will be plenty of young members involved. He has seen the prices go up and down as we all have. In twenty years there is a very good chance that my 63 fuelie will be worth a ton less than it is now. The high dollar cars will stay high. The Z06,L-88, and many others. but the average mid-year, yes I put my car in that category,will not have enough of a following to keep prices up.
                    Also, we will all admit there are egos in this hobby. I have run into a number of them myself. The younger group does not feel welcome with some of these egos. The nice part is, there are far more great guys out there willing to help the younger guys as well. The younger guys just cannot afford some of the older cars.
                    Guys, lighten up a bit. Remember, it was a hobby where we used to really care about each other years ago. We all started out with cars that were pretty roughat one time.
                    Yes, there is that group that pays people to build your cars; you may never understand this other side of the hobby. I had the learn to build transmissions and brake boosters because I could not afford to pay someone to do. Those were actually the better times in the hobby.
                    There is also the group where this is your business. I have to say, this group sure helps a lot of people out even if it may cost them a few dollars in theirpockets. A pretty good bunch of business owners if you ask me. It is verydifficult to turn a hobby into a business. I am sure there is a big group out there that feels this hobby is somewhat of a business to us as we buy and sell parts for the so called "fun of it"
                    I have found that not needing to get every dollar out of a part, or going the extra mile to help a younger guy out, seems to be what is bringing the few in.
                    Bottom line: I think the hobby will take care of itself, as my son thinks it will. We are going to see a huge price drop in average cars like my 63. But in time, these lower prices will get another group involved in the hobby.
                    I also have a 72 Big Block car that my son has taken an interest in. He likes the car because it is almost all there and the majority of the work that has to be done is cosmetic. My point in that statement is, he does not want a restored car. The kinds of cars they want are getting harder and harder to find.
                    How many guys are really going to want to buy a car the **** built to get aDuntov. That car will always be known as **** car. How much of a market will there be for these cars. Better than that, how much appreciation. Will it just become a driver?
                    Have fun with the hobby, and it will take care of itself.

                    Comment

                    • Dick W.
                      Former NCRS Director Region IV
                      • June 30, 1985
                      • 10483

                      #70
                      Re: The Graying of NCRS

                      Originally posted by Wayne Womble (5569)

                      For example, the Model T, the Model A, and other similar cars, dropped some in price as the old folks who grew up with them and remember the days died out, but, they have made a recovery of late. The people that are buying them and keeping the interest are nowhere near the age of remembering them on the road, but that doesn't deter their enthusiasm.
                      As an appraiser, I can vouch for the recovery of the prices on the old cars such as Model T's. They have close to doubled in the last 10 years. Even the brass era, 1900 to about 1920, have seen a dramatic price recovery. About 15 years ago, I stupidly turned down, for my personal collection, a perfectly restored 1911 truck for $8,000. I decided a year of so ago that I wanted a truck like it. Can't buy one for $25,000 today.

                      The prices will ebb and flow, the good cars will appreciate right along, the drivers will appreciate some, the shakey, edgey old cars will probably be another story. Do your homework before you pay hard earned dollars for a car or get someone that is intimately knowledgeable of the year car you are looking at and take them with you. There is a lot of very shiny, presentable pure junk out there.
                      Last edited by Dick W.; March 26, 2012, 02:56 PM. Reason: 'cause I wanna do it
                      Dick Whittington

                      Comment

                      • Jim W.
                        Frequent User
                        • November 1, 1994
                        • 94

                        #71
                        Re: The Graying of NCRS

                        I hope I wasn't confusing in my earlier post. All I'm trying to say is we have this hobby, we, and only we, could care or even pay a $1000.00 for a extra long lost Alternator or Generator for a 1963 Corvette simply because it has the "Right" serial number. I found an alternator for my 79 at a Corvette only junk yard and I took it off the wreaked car in a pouring rain storm. I took it in to the office and asked how much? The owner said "Bud if you willing to stand in the pouring rain just for a alternator with a NCRS correct serial number, Hell you can have for free!" I thanked him and later I took to a small shop and they do rebuilds of alternators and the such. But it got me a second flight award in 2003 NCRS meet in Wildwood, NJ. Getting that award made me really able to sit back and really appreciate the past 11 years of hunting and gathering all the original parts for this 1979 L-48. I got very sick and I had to sell it to cover some of my medical bills. So I am a NCRS member without a current piece of Corvette history in my possession, but I still love this organization, its core values and all of the great people who have helped me over the years.

                        But I'm 60, I have no way to reach out and attract young men and women who might like the 'Game' Many of us are getting to the stage were it won't matter, but if you watch any of the auctions, the price of 1958 and up Corvettes are out of reach for most young folks. At almost every auction you'll see a man, Terry Micheal's who works for or owns "Pro-team Corvettes. And you can virtually see him buy a 1956 Corvette and have it shipped back to Ohio where they polish it and slap a extra $50.000 on it's price. I see it and I say to myself, "There goes another Corvette only a rich collector will be able to afford! And how many people will know or even be interested in joining us at NCRS? How can you begin to attract the very young at the way things are being priced right out of their affordable range. I don't understand why we don't advertise ourselves ? At our current rate we'll be out of members shortly, I'm 60, how many years do you think I have left. We need to advertise ourselves! On other Corvette websites we are considered dinosaurs. People mock our pursuit of restoring something to the way it was when it left St. Louis, but how do we attract other to come to a meet and just wander around , maybe with a chaperone or a guide to show how we judge the Corvettes. I'm just trying ti suggest ways we can grow, Because we grow or die, it's real simple.
                        Each day is a gift, respect it, and enjoy it as if it were the last!

                        Comment

                        • Terry M.
                          Beyond Control Poster
                          • September 30, 1980
                          • 15596

                          #72
                          Re: The Graying of NCRS

                          Not to pick on you Jim, (it was easiest to post it here) because several posters have mentioned that we need to advertise, I thought I would add this factoid:

                          We have. I can't tell you what years (it was while I was Restorer Editor) NCRS advertised in "Corvette Fever" "Hemmings" and other similar hobby oriented publications -- but I do know there were code numbers put in the ads so that the membership office could track the responses and use our advertising dollars most effectively. In the end advertising proved not worth the cost & effort. We got more new members through face to face contact at Corvettes @ Carlisle, but eventually that too fell off.
                          Terry

                          Comment

                          • Michael J.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • January 27, 2009
                            • 7118

                            #73
                            Re: The Graying of NCRS

                            Originally posted by Jim Ward (25392)
                            On other Corvette websites we are considered dinosaurs. People mock our pursuit of restoring something to the way it was when it left St. Louis, but how do we attract other to come to a meet and just wander around , maybe with a chaperone or a guide to show how we judge the Corvettes. I'm just trying ti suggest ways we can grow, Because we grow or die, it's real simple.
                            Two interesting things here, I agree with Jim that we should do a better job of getting outsiders to our meets when judging is done, that is actually how I became interested in NCRS originally. And as a member of SAAC, I can tell you NCRS is not the only group obsessed with restoring the cars back to the way they left the factory. If NCRS is obsessed, SAAC is anal, I tried to post a photo of my '68 GT500KR's VIN stamp that is hidden under the Shelby sequence number tag on their discussion forum and I thought I was going to be thrown out of the organization. It seems that stamp on KRs is so special and different than others they protect it at all costs to try and reduce fake KRs on the market. NCRS hasn't gone to that level yet, and if you think it expensive to make the Top Flight award at NCRS, it is nothing compared to SAAC's only top award, where only a newly restored concours trailer queen can even compete. The same goes for the top awards at Mopar Nationals I have done for my other club. NCRS is much easier and cheaper compared to those, not to say we can't improve, but we are doing real good I think.
                            Big Tanks In the High Mountains of New Mexico

                            Comment

                            • Jim W.
                              Frequent User
                              • November 1, 1994
                              • 94

                              #74
                              Re: The Graying of NCRS

                              Thank you Terry,
                              Attracting new members is one of the most important things we need to do. But as you mentioned, advertising wasn't worth the cost. OK, So we can't attract new members only at meets, but perhaps advertising at a NCRS meet of location might draw in some of the younger crowd. I just feel with the constant upward tract of the price of so many of the most attracted Corvettes now out of reach for most folks, we are going to die, not with a sigle blow but rather from a thousand cuts. These cars are stored away from the sunand in a collections of the rich just collecting dust. In a few year it will be collecting rust. Not very helpful when we need new fresh blood in our organization.
                              Each day is a gift, respect it, and enjoy it as if it were the last!

                              Comment

                              • Terry M.
                                Beyond Control Poster
                                • September 30, 1980
                                • 15596

                                #75
                                Re: The Graying of NCRS

                                Jim,
                                I am not saying advertising isn't worth a try again. Maybe now is different times than in the '90s. Those decisions belong to the BoD. There are some pretty smart fellows on there and I know this issue was discussed at length in the late '90s when I attended board meetings regularily. And as I said I only psoted on your message because I wanted folks to know that NCRS had tried advertising, and what the experience was.

                                I'll crawl back into my hole and watch this thread. It has been most interesting. 2157 views
                                Terry

                                Comment

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