Corvette SAE paper collection

[Duke W.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Duke,
Thanks for this post. I've been working on this 65 FI car for about 1 1/2 years now and have to admit that I know practically zero about Rochester Fuel Injection. Getting close to fire it up time and asked John Degregory for some technical stuff on this thing and bought the ST12 Corvette Service guide (John restored the FI unit). I'll get this publication and study it too so I can become an FI "expert" (ha ha, yeah sure) This engine is bone stock 65 FI.
John McRae

The Rochester FI system is actually fairly straightforward in its operation, but it depends on a lot of precision mechanical parts to function properly, so wear and hack mechanics can take a toll.

BTW, the paper states that the total loss across the air meter (early version) is 6" H20 at 24 lbs/min air flow. At standard sea level air density (.0785 lb/cu ft) that's 305 CFM.

Using the square root relationship of air flow to depression and converting inches of water of inches of mercury (13.6" H20 = 1" Hg.) flow at 1.5" HG depression, which is the industry standard depression for measuring four-barrel carburetors, is 562 CFM.

The late air meters that don't have a closed end cone (not all the air flowed through the annular venturi) is greater so the generally accepted 600-650 CFM is probably close, and they can be "massaged" to flow 700-750 CFM.

All air meters have a 3" throttle bore and a large diameter butterfly shaft - 0.5" - was required due to a load of up to 75 pounds on the shaft at high manifold vacuum. The thick butterfly and shaft cause as much if not more loss than the annular venturi.

The only issue I take with the paper is that the system doesn't really meter fuel on the basis of mass air flow. Like a carburetor, it meters on the basis of volume flow, so A/F variation occurs due to air density variation, such as richening as a car is driven from low to high altitude.

Duke

[Joseph T.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Just placed an order for the Corvette publication and it went through.

When I bought the Nassau car, I was not familiar with the Houdaille shock rear suspension. Mike Hunt wrote me and said it was RPO 581 which never went into production. It was however identified in an SAE report. My guess is, serious Corvette guys should get this publication while it is available.

Joe

[George J.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

I just went through a mock order, and I was able to add both the SAE paper collection book (PT-118) and Van Valkenberg's book (R-271) to the shopping cart.

Duke

Duke,
You can do that, but when you get to the payment area it says that there are 0 available. I talked to a woman who sent someone to the warehouse, and they said there weren't any left. That was enough for me. Maybe they were wrong.

George

[William G.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Yupppp! Its happened again............dollar short and a day late. Sounds like the SAE book would've made FASCINATING reading. Would have.........could have...........etc., etc., etc. Duke would have been better served had he not mentioned it in the first place! Course Sour Grapes would have to say that it is easy for HIM to say that the SAE papers are EASY to understand. What, MR Williams, you have two advanced degrees? I'm tempted to check into the WWII aircraft engine design info..........but I imagine understanding it would be a real effort also. Maybe Paul's book is still in the offing.

WAG
1966 Bowtie Coupe.

[Jerry G.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Thanks for the heads up on SAE R206. I just ordered it. I have read Millikens book and just finished inputing and analyzing my C2 race car suspension in Mitchells analysis software. Very interesting stuff. Bill Mitchell himself( nice guy) helped sort out what the heck the rear suspension looks like in simulation. The old design was pretty good. Not great but pretty good. Rear geometry in bump is messy at best.

[Duke W.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

I'm tempted to check into the WWII aircraft engine design info..........but I imagine understanding it would be a real effort also. Maybe Paul's book is still in the offing.

Sorry, guys! I had no idea they had so little inventory. I guess the low price was a close-out special.

"Allied Aircraft Engines of World War II" is not highly techinical, but would be of interest to anyone who has a general interest in high performance internal combustion engines. What's most interesting is all of the experimental engines that were developed, starting with the HYPER program in the 1930s. None of them ever went into production, but a few reached the prototype and test stage. These engines were amazingly complex as we pushed the state of the art in power per unit displacement and mass, but, alas, it was clear by the end of the War that turbines were the way to go because they are "scaleable" as are diesel engines.

One of the problems with spark ignition engines is that they are not scaleable. You can't keep increasing per cylinder displacement because detonation limits practical bore size to about six inches, but I think some aircraft engines up to about 6.25" bore went into production. So the only choice is to keep increasing cylinder count, and the most interesting of these engines was a 36-cylinder liquid cooled radial that was effectively nine SOHC inline fours radially attached to a common crankshaft. It was speced to produce 5000 HP an was the original intended powerplant for the B-36, which ended up with R-4360s and four gasoline burning J-47 jets to make up the difference.

All of the engines that powered WW II era production aircraft were already in production or in development at the time of Pearl Harbor including the R-3350 that powered the B-29, but it had huge teething problems.

The R-4360 was also in development, but didn't reach production until after the end of the War. Many of the internal design features and systems (like fuel injection) of these engines that gave them high specific output were later incorporated into automotive engine designs.

The story of the Allison V-1710 is sad. IMO it was a better basic design than the Rolls Royce Merlin, but Army Air Corp doctrine prior to WW II assumed that air combat would occur at low to medium altitudes, so they never funded development of a proper two stage boost system for the V-1710 other than the the P-38, but a turborcharger is difficult to package in a single engine, single seat design like the P-51. Consequently, when the AAC finally realized that most air combat was occuring at over 20,000 feet, they decided to license the proven two-speed, two-stage supercharged Rolls Merlin for the P-51D, and Packard got the contract for what became the V-1650, but they had to make a lot of changes to adapt it for mass production. The English-built Merlins were literally hand-built with a lot of "machine to fit" parts.

Duke

[Clem Z.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Sorry, guys! I had no idea they had so little inventory. I guess the low price was a close-out special.

The "Allied Aircraft Engines of World War II" is not highly techinical, but would be of interest to anyone who has a general interest in high performance internal combustion engines. What's most interesting is all of the experimental engines that were developed, starting with the HYPER program in the 1930s. None of them ever went into production, but a few reached the prototype and test stage. These engines were amazingly complex as we pushed the state of the art in power per unit displacment and mass, but, alas, it was clear by the end of the War that turbines were the way to go because they are "scaleable" as are diesel engines.

One of the problems with spark ignition engines is that they are not scaleable. You can't keep increasing per cylinder displacement because detonation limits practical bore size to about six inches, but I think some aircraft engines up to about 6.25" bore went into production. So the only choice is to keep increasing cylinder count, and the most interesting of these engines was a 36-cylinder liquid cooled radial that was effectively nine SOHC inline fours radially attached to a common crankshaft. It was speced to produce 5000 HP an was the original intended powerplant for the B-36, which ended up with R-4360s and four gasoline burning J-47 jets to make up the difference.

All of the engines that powered WW II era production aircraft were already in production or in development at the time of Pearl Harbor including the R-3350 that powered the B-29, but it had huge teething problems.

The R-4360 was also in development, but didn't reach production until after the end of the War. Many of the internal design features and systems (like fuel injection) of these engines that gave them high specific output were later incorporated into automotive engine designs.

The story of the Allison V-1710 is sad. IMO it was a better basic design than the Rolls V-1650, but Army Air Corp doctrine prior to WW II assumed that air combat would occur at low to medium altitudes, so they never funded development of a proper two stage boost system other than the the P-38, but a turborcharger is difficult to package in a single engine, single seat design like the P-51. Consequently, when the AAC finally realized that most air combat was occuring over 20,000 feet, they decided to license the two-stage supercharged Rolls Merlin for the P-51D, but they had to make a lot of changes to adapt it for mass production. The Rolls versions were literally "hand built" with a lot of "machine to fit" parts.

Duke

there is a shop in latrobe pa.,about 15 miles from me that rebuilds the 1710s and he has a warehouse full of spare parts. he has a outdoor run in stand and it is something when he fires one up.

[Terry M.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

I just went through a mock order, and I was able to add both the SAE paper collection book (PT-118) and Van Valkenberg's book (R-271) to the shopping cart.

Duke

They took my order, and money, late yesterday (3/22/12) afternoon Central Daylight Savings Time. I will keep you all posted on how the shipment goes. Thanks Duke for the heads up.

[Joseph T.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Placed order yesterday for Corvette papers and received shipping confirmation today.

Joe

[Floyd B.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

The SAE site just took my order. We'll see what happens.

[Terry M.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Yesterday (3/23/12) I received a shipping statement with a tracking number. My order includes all three texts Duke cited.

[William G.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Thanks Duke,for all the good info on the WWII engines. I had read that the Allisons were a dog compared to the RR Merlin, but I ran into a guy at a museum (ADM Nimitz's museum in Texas,
IFIRC) several years ago that, like you, knew a LOT more than I did and essentially he said just what you stated herein..........namely the Allison was a good design--just lacked the proper supercharging for high altitude use. War IS HELL......probably the only good thing about it is the technology that it spawns.....and even that might come regardless, just take a lot longer.

WAG
1966 Bowtie coupe

[Duke W.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Yesterday (3/23/12) I received a shipping statement with a tracking number. My order includes all three texts Duke cited.

Great! Prepare for a quiz on the R-7755 in San Diego.

Duke

[Terry M.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

I will probably have time to read it on the airplane back and forth from Portland -- do you think I will be able to stay awake?

[George J.]

Re: Corvette SAE paper collection

Yesterday (3/23/12) I received a shipping statement with a tracking number. My order includes all three texts Duke cited.

Well, I'm glad it worked for you guys. You would think if someone goes and actually "checks" something that they'd do it right. Silly me.

George