Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

[Paul L.]

I am thinking of doing a non-original steering conversion and would appreciate advice. Can I post non-NCRS/original tech questions here?

[Joe L.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

I am thinking of doing a non-original steering conversion and would appreciate advice. Can I post non-NCRS/original tech questions here?

Paul------


As far as I know, yes.

As far as a non-original type power steering conversion for a 1963-76 Corvette, I do not recommend any such conversion. The original type power steering is the best overall set-up for a 63-76 from both a FUNCTIONAL as well as original perspective.

[Paul L.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

OK, I'll try. Thanks Joe, as usual. We go back a long ways! I was thinking of the Borgeson conversion. It eliminates the troublesome and often leaky power steering control valve and cylinder/ram. They do not seem to hold up very well. Mine leaked in my 1979, my 1967, and now my 1974. Looks like a nice (and functional as well) alternative??

Those who have converted have given very favorable reviews.

http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/home.php?cat=49

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_1111_borgeson_universal_power_steering_kit/index.html

[Duke W.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Wouldn't it be easier to just overhaul the hydraulic cylinder? Assuming you repaired the others, have they leaked since?

It's usually easier and less expensive to overhaul existing components rather that install some aftermarket system that may not be that well engineered, and you don't end up with a cobbled up car.

This happens a lot. How many people have spent close to a thousand dollars "re-engineering" the cooling system, when all they needed was a new vacuum advance, a new or rebuilt fan clutch, or, at worst, a new OE equivalent radiator (aluminum) or recore (brass) to replace the several decades old original that was clogged up with deposits.

Assuming the '74 PS hydraulic cylinder has never been overhauled it's only 38 years old with how many miles?

The vast majority of cars are in the boneyard before they reach the age of 25.

Duke

[Patrick H.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

I've never had an issue in a car that's driven regularly. Once these parts are rebuilt and used, i.e. the seals don't dry out or get dirty, they seem to do just fine. I've never seen much benefit in the $1000 replacement systems.

The article from Vette Magazine shows that other parts were replaced too - steering arm, idler arm, tie rods, etc. Replacing these may have helped as much as anything else. I know from personal experience that replacing a bad idler arm can make a big difference in your steering.

[Jim T.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

My 70's power steering has over 41 years of age now. Only leak was the cylinder that I put a new seal in over 25 years ago. 160K+ mileage. Did replace the hoses, but not because they were leaking.

[Michael W.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Paul,

I think your problem is changing cars too often. Keep the '74.

[Paul L.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Paul,

I think your problem is changing cars too often. Keep the '74.

Au contraire! I keep them too long . But this one I enjoy very much and will probably keep for 2012, at least.

As to the original subject, I'll re-think the Borgeson conversion. The car steers very nicely/precisely although I do have a persistent, albeit minor, leak. Strangely it does not seem to be P/S fluid but oil from the bottom of the steering box unto the Pitman arm. It is almost like the box was filled with oil or a lube that liquefies under high heat conditions. Perhaps the best thing to do is get a re-built stock steering box and install that in the spring.

I know Gary R. does fantastic work but I cannot pull the box out while the car is in winter commercial storage. For insurance purposes it must remain "moveable". And I believe Gary rebuilds but does not sell boxes. So I guess the next question is: Who sells a quality box? I don't mind paying a modest core charge. EBay is filled with "bargains" but I really wonder about those units. I don't wish to fool about with such a critical safety component.

Mike, anyone in Montreal who sells these units? That would avoid the usual cross-border gouging by UPS and the like.

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[Joe L.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Au contraire! I keep them too long . But this one I enjoy very much and will probably keep for 2012, at least.

As to the original subject, I'll re-think the Borgeson conversion. The car steers very nicely/precisely although I do have a persistent, albeit minor, leak. Strangely it does not seem to be P/S fluid but oil from the bottom of the steering box unto the Pitman arm. It is almost like the box was filled with oil or a lube that liquefies under high heat conditions. Perhaps the best thing to do is get a re-built stock steering box and install that in the spring.

I know Gary R. does fantastic work but I cannot pull the box out while the car is in winter commercial storage. For insurance purposes it must remain "moveable". And I believe Gary rebuilds but does not sell boxes. So I guess the next question is: Who sells a quality box? I don't mind paying a modest core charge. EBay is filled with "bargains" but I really wonder about those units. I don't wish to fool about with such a critical safety component.

(thumbnail)

Paul------


I think that Gary could probably obtain a steering box core and rebuild it for you.

By the way, one of my reasons for utilizing the stock type power steering system on a Corvette: the Corvette power steering system is a power-assisted, manual steering system. As such there is more "road feel" and "feedback" than one would experience with the aftermarket type systems

[Michael W.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Mike, anyone in Montreal who sells these units? That would avoid the usual cross-border gouging by UPS and the like.

Not an off the shelf ready to go unit. Maybe the best bet is have one shipped to Ogdensburg NY and go pick it up. That's about an hour each way?

[Paul L.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Joe,

Interesting perspective! I had not thought of it that way. Sometimes old technology has attributes.

I should emphasize that the 1974 was a joy to drive in 2011. I had to do a number of running gear and other repairs (suspension bushings, VBP rear #330 composite spring, KYB tuned shocks for same, brakes, fuel pump, and more) but by September it was a jewel; as best a 1974 can be . In fact, and this is heresy, I enjoy it more than my former 1967 coupe. And so does my Wife (a pretty important consideration....).

[Paul L.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Not an off the shelf ready to go unit. Maybe the best bet is have one shipped to Ogdensburg NY and go pick it up. That's about an hour each way?

Yes, it's about an hour or two. The CCC used to have a drop-off point there but the Club is more C5-C6 these days rather than restoration. I'll have to check with Wendy.

*Edit* - Apologies to readers about the unintelligible CCC acronym. Here it is in detail.

http://www.capitalcorvetteclub.ca/

[Gary R.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Hi Guys,
Saw this thread and figured I'd add in my opinion! LOL. I have to be careful how I word this so that don't offend some who may think I'm out for your business Paul.

Personally I don't care for any of the aftermarket steering systems for a 63-82 vette. This is just my opinion but I've had original PS setups and still have one on my 72. I don't like the fact some aftermarket systems/boxes require cutting the steering column,use u-joints in place of a grounded quality rag joint, use funky brackets to support them, take up more room in the engine compartment, and will not add to the value of the car. Stock boxes can be rebuilt, in stock or common market configuration but may not be what is expected. I do some custom things to them and once done correctly, with either good original or new gears, they out perform a NOS Saginaw box, which would be hard to locate these days.

The "new" boxes I see advertised sound pretty good but the ones I have been send to correct were pretty lousy. I put a blueprinted box on e**y after I got back from Carlisle and it was interesting to hear from one of the e**y "rebuilders" telling me there is no way to custom build them and he build hundreds of them. He closed out by telling me his method of setting them up and it was just plain wrong! But who am I to say, they're all over that auction site everyday of the week. I wouldn't use one in a lawn tractor let alone a vette, but I'm probably too critical.

I used to rebuild control valves when parts were reasonable, there are 2 kits required to go through them. If the housing isn't worn out they can usually be rebuilt, but if not then they will leak. I no longer recommend rebuilt valves when asked these days because too many go out that shouldn't. The cost of a new valve is about the same as a quality rebuilt valve and the quality rebuilders will test and balance them before shipping them out and offer a warranty. That is what I do now if someone needs a new valve, refer them to a vendor.

The other area of leaks are from the hoses. When I went through my 72 I replaced the hoses but I first matched the new ones against the originals. I found they were just a little shorter and the radius on the steel line was tighter. I had to get a couple of hose kits in to get hoses that fit correctly and would not be stretched out or bind in extreme travel.

My rebuilt valve or hoses do not leak.

Now you state you believe the leak is in fact from the box, at the lower seal. This should be a black double lip seal. The box should have grease not gear oil in it but I've seen plenty of odd things with these over the years. The grease used back in the 60-70's will dry out 40 years later and the oil could be forced out if the box was over greased in the past. Since these are non-vented boxes mounted next to the exhaust the temp will cause expansion and,depending on the grease used, be forced out. I stopped using Mobil 1 grease for this very reason a few years ago. Leaks typically show up from the input seal, adjusting nut threads(at times even with thread sealant), or the lower seal. I fixture the lower seals when I install them. So if the box is tight otherwise you may not need a rebuild but just a replacement lower seal. These can be replaced on the car but it is much easier with the box out of the car. In which case you can do that at home after you get the car back for the summer.

Now if you have sloppy steering, and some have inches of lash on center, then you have to correct that. You're a pretty handy guy so you can most likely adjust the box,on center, to see if there is room to adjust the lash. The pitman shaft and ball nut use a tapered tooth engagement, it will only go so far before it's bottomed out. A lot of what I see is incorrect lash adjustment and no bearing preload adjustment. The center tooth on the P-shaft is oversize to allow on center tight steering but if the lash is over adjusted will cause it to wear too much and usually kill the gears over time. The best way to adjust these boxes is out of the car using a dial 0-30 in/lb Torque wrench with tell-tail. Fish scales, beams, clickers aren't going to cut it.

I think the best example of all this is a fellow in RI named Jeff who is the original owner of a 78. He is a very accomplished car guy, handles all his own work, also has a new Z06. He went through his entire front suspension and steering on the 78 but still had some looseness in it. I checked his box and the original gears were still good at 65k miles. After I blueprinted the box he told me the car now steers as well as some of his other new cars, granted not on the same plane as the Z06 but better then the 78 ever had from day one. He didn't cut up his car, maintained the value with the original box, it fits and looks great,and bottom line it works great. It cost him a 1/3 of an aftermarket box and even more over a rack setup.

It's your car so you make the decision but it could be a simple deal for you to do at home and have great results-providing the rest of the steering/suspension is in good shape.

If you have any questions let me know.

[Paul L.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

Gary,

Those are very thorough and interesting comments for which I thank you. I knew you were a subscriber to the Board and thought you would chime in at some point on one of your favorite subjects. And I was not soliciting YOUR business....but you have such an excellent reputation!

Yes, the box does leak and perhaps it just needs a bottom seal. But quite frankly I do not know what is inside and am uncomfortable with the current situation. The 1974 has ~98,000 miles on it and I would think a re-build of the box is due. The steering is not loose but still....

PM or e-mail me (platour@rogers.com) if you can get me one of your quality re-builds. Unfortunately I can't get a core back to you until April-May.

I look forward to your reply.

[Paul L.]

Re: Can I Post a C3 Non-Original Tech Question Here?

By the way, one of my reasons for utilizing the stock type power steering system on a Corvette: the Corvette power steering system is a power-assisted, manual steering system. As such there is more "road feel" and "feedback" than one would experience with the aftermarket type systems.

This comment really got me thinking. Thanks Joe. I will install a new stock steering box.

I believe in closing out threads. My thanks for the comments.