My stamp pad

[Christopher A.]

I recently had my car judged and i just realized while looking back over my judging sheets that i received a full deduct for my stamp pad. I was exhausted at the show and i guess i did not fully understand what the judge was telling me when i signed the sheet. Had i known he deducting all points for my stamp pad, i would have never signed it.
Anyway, he deducted all points because it was pitted and aged. The engine block is almost 46 years old and the engine sat apart for a long time exposed to the elements. I am going to file an appeal, if it isnt too late, but i was curious if anybody else had received a full deduction for a pitted and aged stamp pad.

Thanks

[Tom H.]

Re: My stamp pad

I am really surprised this information didn't get through to you on the field. You must have been tired !! I'd like to see the pad as it was judged. A pad with rust will receive a full deduction according to the manual. Not sure what can be done at this point. Keep us informed on the outcome.

[Terry M.]

Re: My stamp pad

I recently had my car judged and i just realized while looking back over my judging sheets that i received a full deduct for my stamp pad. I was exhausted at the show and i guess i did not fully understand what the judge was telling me when i signed the sheet. Had i known he deducting all points for my stamp pad, i would have never signed it.
Anyway, he deducted all points because it was pitted and aged. The engine block is almost 46 years old and the engine sat apart for a long time exposed to the elements. I am going to file an appeal, if it isnt too late, but i was curious if anybody else had received a full deduction for a pitted and aged stamp pad.

Thanks

Chris,
If your car was judged at an NCRS meet (you don't say that and I have learned it is dangerous to assUme anything) it is too late.

The NCRS appeals process has to be done at the judging site, and on the judging field. All the parties (owner, judges, Team Leader, Meet Judging Chairman and in some cases the National Judging Chairman) must be present, and once the meet is over we can not recreate that event. To do so would be akin to putting toothpaste back into the tube.

The details of the appeals process are spelled out in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual. The most recent edition is the 8th, and there is an addendum to that edition that is dated July 2011 (Rev 4.0). The addendum does not deal with the appeals process, but I mention it so that those reading this can be sure they have the most up to date and complete version.

[Christopher A.]

Re: My stamp pad

I was confused about the scoring on the judging sheets and the information was being gone over hastily due to the time frame and the sun setting. I had been up late all that week working on the car and then had driven 11 hours to the judging event. My brain was not working well due to sleep deprivation.

Ill post some pictures of the stamp pad in a bit. I plan to have the car judged again in January and i am not sure how past judging will effect the next event, if at all.

[Chris E.]

Re: My stamp pad

Here's my suspicion.

If the engine pad is so heavily rusted and pitted that the stamping itself is hard to read, or the broach marks are not legible, then I can see how the judges took a full deduct. The engine pad is (as you can imagine) one of the largest points of concern on any judged car.

If you went to an NCRS, you could get more information about why the full deduct was taken from the judging chairman (if it was a Chapter meet) or from the team leader if it was a regional or national event. The judging chairman / team leader has to sign off on the judging sheet for every full deduct. A full deduct on a stamp pad is a big deal, and that person will likely remember the detail. If they don't, they can probably put you in touch with the judges that called your pad and they can tell you.

Make a few phone calls / emails and see what you can find out.

[Michael W.]

Re: My stamp pad

Chistopher-

The standard of Flight Judging is 'typical of new factory production' etc. Engine pads didn't have 46 years of corrosion on them when new. Unfortunately the engine stamp pad points have no partial deducts, it's all or nothing. I suppose that the judges had to make the tough call of taking a deduct due to this condition. On the bright side, it's only 38 points out of 4500, or a .8% deduct. This can be overcome by driving at least 80 miles to the meet which you appear to have done. 38 points is 38 points whether it's a stamp pad or a few line times in the Ops test, no different. Preparation and knowing the rules are the key point.

Past judging scores are of no consequence and are unknown to judges at subsequent meets. There's plenty of posts here on how to safely clean a pad of corrosion. If corrosion was the only concern then the pad should judge fine next time.

I'll humbly disagree with Chris E- a stamp pad decision in Flight Judging is not the be all and end all knell of death. The judging standard is simply LOOKING like TPF, no decision or certification is made about authenticity.

[Michael F.]

Re: My stamp pad

I don't agree with ncrs on all or nothing deduction, you could have a virgin block in perfect shape restamped and not be correct cast date and get all points, that is not right...maybe time to put cars on lifts and judge everything to get top flight. my 2 cents

[Michael W.]

Re: My stamp pad

That's not how judging works Michael- the casting date is evaluated before the stamp pad. If the date is outside TFP, judging on the engine case stops there.

[Dick W.]

Re: My stamp pad

Ill post some pictures of the stamp pad in a bit. I plan to have the car judged again in January and i am not sure how past judging will effect the next event, if at all.

Past judging has no bearing. The car is judged, as presented, on the day of judging.

[Christopher A.]

Re: My stamp pad

The numbers and characters are completely visible and legible, but the pad is weathered and the broach marks are not visible with the naked eye. Kind of what you would expect for a chunk of cast iron that is almost 50 years old and in my opinion, there should be leniency in this area. I realize that the cars are suppose to be presented as they rolled off the factory line, but let's be a little realistic.
So, from some of the comments, what i would conclude is that i would be better of with a nice fresh restamp. I think that is what irritates me the most about this whole debacle. I have an original car with its unmolested stamp pad and i get a full deduct because it doesnt look prestine. That's a big steaming load of crapola in my opinion.

[Donald T.]

Re: My stamp pad

Christopher,

Why don't you post a hi res pic of your pad. You will be able to get your best advice by providing the best information. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Let's see what you are dealing with here.

[Terry M.]

Re: My stamp pad

The numbers and characters are completely visible and legible, but the pad is weathered and the broach marks are not visible with the naked eye. Kind of what you would expect for a chunk of cast iron that is almost 50 years old and in my opinion, there should be leniency in this area. I realize that the cars are suppose to be presented as they rolled off the factory line, but let's be a little realistic.
So, from some of the comments, what i would conclude is that i would be better of with a nice fresh restamp. I think that is what irritates me the most about this whole debacle. I have an original car with its unmolested stamp pad and i get a full deduct because it doesnt look prestine. That's a big steaming load of crapola in my opinion.

Chris,
Please define a "full deduction."

The entire engine is worth 350 points -- If your casting number was not what the factory installed your car lost 350 points, but it was not because of your stamp pad. OH, and 350 points is a "full deduction" to many people.

The date code is next and if that is not TFP one then loses 175 points. This is not a full deduction since one has received 175 points for the correct casting.

Now to the stamp pad.
The engine assembly plant stamp and the vehicle VIN derivative each are assigned 25 points, and the pad surface is assigned 38 points. Each of those last three are judged separately but each is an all or nothing assessment. That is they each get all their points or none of their points. One can get 25 points for each of the stampings and all or nothing of the 38 for the pad surface.

So pray tell us what was your "full deduction?" I will make this multiple guess (as I tell my students)

A) 350 points
B) 175 points
C) 25 points engine assembly
D) 25 points VIN derivative
E) 38) points pad surface

Me thinks perhaps this process was not well explained to you, or you did not absorb the explanation.

[Pat M.]

Re: My stamp pad

Terry, it might be time for your periodic "taking a baseball to a football game" analogy. Or is it the other way around?

[Terry M.]

Re: My stamp pad

Terry, it might be time for your periodic "taking a baseball to a football game" analogy. Or is it the other way around?

Either way is not so good, but I don't think that analogy applies here. I think in this case we have a failure to communicate.

[Pat M.]

Re: My stamp pad

Either way is not so good, but I don't think that analogy applies here. I think in this case we have a failure to communicate.

Could be that too. I just meant, as previously pointed out, it should not be much of a surprise that an admittedly degraded pad did not do well in Flight Judging. I sympathize with Christopher, but the Flight Judging standard is what it is, and should be, IMO.