Judging standards over the years

[Anthony S.]

How would a TF car that scored high (98-99%) back in the 90's do on the judging field today? (assuming that the car has not changed and condition maintained the same)

[Ridge K.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

This should be very interesting.......

[Dennis O.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

I think you are asking the wrong question, because the answer will obviously vary greatly from car to car. More likely something like. "Are there cars that Top-Flighted 20 years ago that would not Top Flight currently?"

[Anthony S.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

I think your question is a good one. But maybe we could ask this question even better: What judging critera items have changed significantly over the past ~15 years that would affect any TF that was done 10-15 years ago?

[Tom H.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

It is an interesting question. My opinion would be that the car would not score as well today, but there are variables.

If the car was a frame off restored car, I'd say there would be a huge difference for the simple fact that we are smarter now and have learned many new things as far as production procedures, early vs. late parts, colors, etc.

Now, if the car was a totally original car judged then and it has been properly preserved since, you might find the scores similar. If it was a good original car then and it still is now.......... It will still score high.

Of course the level of award would enter into it as well. Chapter level Top Flight scores could vary greatly due to the experience level of the judge on that particular day.

Bottom line is that we are smarter now. We know more and I think a high score today would generally be harder to achieve than it was back then.

Just a few points with my opinion. I bet this one will be a lengthy conversation.

[Scott S.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

Real cars will continue to score well. We own a 1967 sb coupe. In 1998 at the National event our score was 98.? and we received a Duntov award. The coupe has been driven regularly and has been on many NCRS Road Tours. In 2009, we traveled 3882 miles to San Jose and had the coupe judged at the National event. We had to replace a faulty water pump on the RT with a non-numbers water pump.
The radial tires, battery, water pump and some misc. items took total deductions. The coupe scored 95.2 without driving points. Minimal point deductions occurred for the accumulated dirt and grime.
We hope this answers your question.
Scott and Kay Sinclair

[Tom H.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

I think your question is a good one. But maybe we could ask this question even better: What judging critera items have changed significantly over the past ~15 years that would affect any TF that was done 10-15 years ago?

Just look at an old judging manual for any given year and look at one now. Big difference. Like I said. We are smarter now !

[Scott S.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

Perhaps I should have been more specific on the point loss for the major deductions which were nearly 2.5 percentage points. The 95.2 becomes 97.7 not far off the 98.? eleven years before.
Scott

[Dick W.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

I know of one car that scored a very high 99% score in the early 90's, and a few years ago it was a decent scoring second flight. Not been driven, just the difference in knowledge about the cars.

[Ed D.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

My 72 recieved a Dontuv in 1997 at lake Placid with a 98.1. At the Wildwood Regional 2011 it obtained a 97 with radial tires and no origional filters. At the Novi National after driving 2000 miles it got 96.6 no driving points. Comparing the judging sheets from 1997 there were no major judging differences for areas that I did not change over the years.
Ed

[Gene M.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

It is an interesting question. My opinion would be that the car would not score as well today, but there are variables.

If the car was a frame off restored car, I'd say there would be a huge difference for the simple fact that we are smarter now and have learned many new things as far as production procedures, early vs. late parts, colors, etc.

Now, if the car was a totally original car judged then and it has been properly preserved since, you might find the scores similar. If it was a good original car then and it still is now.......... It will still score high.

Of course the level of award would enter into it as well. Chapter level Top Flight scores could vary greatly due to the experience level of the judge on that particular day.

Bottom line is that we are smarter now. We know more and I think a high score today would generally be harder to achieve than it was back then.

Just a few points with my opinion. I bet this one will be a lengthy conversation.

I guess I would have to DISAGREE with Tom and AGREE with Scott.

The judges have no difference in "smarts". In fact it is my experience that the older judges knew most of the stuff that was not in earlier manuals and applied it in flight judging. This is strongest in the later mid year classes. It is also noticeable that fewer of the judges from earlier years still judge.

As far as for the cars, paint finishes and pad stamps were more stringent. Clear coat of any nature was a full deduction (which today would rule out base/clear).

The pad stampings previously was a correct/wrong full points or none. There was no partial deductions for restamping.

One must also consider that many of the repop stuff today did not exhist years ago. The "fake stuff" was less of an issue. Just as a point of interest there were more SB 67's years ago on the show field. Today everything is a 435hp.........

[Michael J.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

I would venture a guess that C2 BB cars are under much more scrutiny these days than 20 years ago, and C2 black cars.

[William C.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

I would think that as others have noted there is little difference in the top levels of long-established classes. Get down to the chapter level and more variation is seen in some cases, primarily due to depth of experience (or lack of) at that level.

[Gene M.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

I would think that as others have noted there is little difference in the top levels of long-established classes. Get down to the chapter level and more variation is seen in some cases, primarily due to depth of experience (or lack of) at that level.

What Bill says is very true. We try to team up newer guys with us old farts so both the newer judge and the car owner benefit. As a judging chairman I try to point out plus and minus as we go along so it becomes more of a schooling. The owners like this since most are also learning the ropes of NCRS judging. Adding explanation on how to is always inspiring to again the new judge and owner.

Chapter meets generally have fewer cars per class so time permits more education. I have found guys really like Terry's advance judging classes at the national. They generally go over time and extend into lunch break. I enjoy sharing and the questions posed.

[Ridge K.]

Re: Judging standards over the years

I know of one car that scored a very high 99% score in the early 90's, and a few years ago it was a decent scoring second flight. Not been driven, just the difference in knowledge about the cars.

Thank you, Dick .... for sharing that story. That's one of many similar stories I've been told by eye witnesses.

Scott S's story also adds to this discussion.

My guess is the overall true cold, hard reality lies somewhere in between.

Hope to hear more commentary on this very good thread. We all learn from this subject....
Ridge